Viewing Thread:
"into the next dimension"

I'll dispense with the newbie whine quickly: why won't anyone read my post? Answer: I haven't posted it yet.

Anyway...

I've spent most of the last week playing the import version of Super Mario Advance 2 on the GBA. My first thoughts were, 'well, what's the point?' A classic game, yes, but nothing more than a port of the SNES version. Several hours later I was starving, but couldn't stop playing. Thank god for (a) bodily functions, and (b) batteries that run out: without them I'd be typing this with a beard, foot-long fingernails and a strange 'aroma' all about me. You see, updates to SMA2 may be minimal but gaming perfection is still gaming perfection.

What struck me is how utterly immersive the game is: not only does the outside world disappear, but you become unaware of all the hard- and software between you and Mario. This is such a contrast to the 3D third-person games on the next-gen consoles. For all the fancy textures and graphical sophistication of a Jak and Daxter or a Herdy Gerdy, I've never found lines between game and reality becoming blurred in this genre.

The problem is always the same: I am constantly worrying about camera angles. For example, I think Herdy Gerdy is one of the most beautiful looking games I've played; but the controls are often rendered fiddly or a matter of luck by the camera's disappearance behind a wall or cliff. There are numerous camera controls to correct this sort of thing in-game, but these fail to introduce SMA2 style worry-free gaming for two reasons. First, is the obvious fact that you frequently have to make up for deficient camera AI yourself: you are constantly reminded that the title is just a game and so your involvement can only be so deep. Second, the level design often undermines manual camera control: there are blind spots that no amount of manipulation will let you see. Herdy-Gerdy is actually quite an extreme example: other 3D games have cameras that less glitchy but just as unsatisfying. Even GTA3, which offers near-perfect in car control, becomes confusing and fiddly when moving on foot, especially when accurate shooting is required: the camera swooshes about but rarely gives a clear picture of your wider situation.

The play mechanics for 2D and 3D platformers are pretty similar - run, jump, run, jump, bash, jump - but adding that third dimension seems to stop the player from getting totally in the zone. As I've said, I think this is mostly down to badly behaved cameras, something that is especially noticeable after experiencing the simple but effective 'railway line' perspective of SMA2.

I don't want games to revert to 2D because gaming needs to evolve; but unless the technology also improves then designers are going to be hampered by poor implementation. And since the best 3D camera is STILL Mario 64, it's safe to say that the technology is in a bit of a rut. Three dimensional third-person gaming can't be an impossible puzzle to solve: after all, adding an extra dimension to the FPS was so successful that playing pseudo-3D games like Doom and Ecks vs. Sever is now very disconcerting.

But what the solution is I'm not sure. Fixed camera angles? Better camera AI? Or something radically different? Any ideas?

My god: that should read 'your family' not 'you're family'.

Cheers for the feedback, and to Sonicrav for posting this in prime. V.V.V.V.V, I can promise you there is no there conspiracy ; )

Oh, and Sonicrav - you're family will released unharmed as promised at the stroke of midnight!

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:
> HálloHowArtThou wrote:
> V.V.V.V.V.,
if there are any topics you'd
> liek me to post for you in prime,
> i'll happily do it..

Thanks, but no
> thanks. I'm a Newbie so I'll play by the rules. When I'm Regular I'll do it
> myself.

well i tried :)
its up to you though...

rememeber you can still post replies though.......

HálloHowArtThou wrote:
> V.V.V.V.V.,
if there are any topics you'd liek me to post for you in prime,
> i'll happily do it..

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm a Newbie so I'll play by the rules. When I'm Regular I'll do it myself.

It can be annoying that to see the most, graphically, in games such as Operation Flashpoint and Ace Combat 4, that you need to use the external view which put you at the mercy of bad camera angles. Trying to bomb in Ace Combat 4 using the external view is nigh on impossible, if you want to hit a target that is..... Max Payne has an external view solely, which whilst pleasing can add difficulty to what is othersie an ace game.

V.V.V.V.V.,

if there are any topics you'd liek me to post for you in prime, i'll happily do it..

I see what you mean there unknown kernel,

camera angles can get very annoying, not only on consoles but PC games...

One prime example of this is definately Operation ~Flashpoint, excellent game, amazing graphic, amazing gameplay but the camera is pretty annoying, sometimes you end up in an annpying position where the camera ends up behind a wall or in it.., therefore you need to move forward, losing you position and getting shot at...

Excellent post unknown kernel.

But what gives SONICRAV the divine right to pick and choose like some god of gaming which "Newbie posts" are worthy of going into Prime?

1. It's patronizing to other Newbies who write good posts, and
2. I smell conspiracy....

I think it's just going to come out of practice that delevopers will get the camera angle thing right.

What they really need though is for the camera to be able to see through anything between it, and you, so it can always be over your shoulder, even if you're backed up to a wall. Maybe have the outline of the object to let you know that you have your back to something - but let you see through it so you don't have to fiddle with camera buttons to see what you need to.

This is, quite probably, the most brilliant topic I have read for months.

Unfortunately, you suffer the same problem as neilc- as a newbie you cannot post in Prime...

So, I'll post it there for you (with your name of course), and hopefully it'll get the credit that it deserves.

BTW, you can reply to the topics in Prime, but not make new ones.

Sonic