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"Hollow Victory ? Over-reaction ? Free PR ......"

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This thread has been linked to the game 'Hitman 2'.
Sun 24/11/02 at 22:14
Posts: 787
So Hitman 2 is off sale in Woolworths and Pc World, and a few other places keen to be seen as non racist. Great eh ? Erm, but it got past the BBFC, ELSPA, all reviews, and retailers, without being seen as racist until now. Does that tell us something ?

So it's congratulations to the Sikh organisation that pushed for this, I dare say that they have increased game sales in the majority of shops that have not banned it - Newsround reported Woolworths had received 100's of complaints when the real figure is closer to the number of fingers on my two hands...but banning a low ranked chart title all makes for good family friendly PR doesn't it :) Incidentally the same organisation did kind of need to raise it's PR level didn't it, and what better a target than the eager for acceptance games industry.

Whatsmore, this weekend there have been more people ask for the game than before at just where I work, and interest prior to this week has been 0 - we'd sold about 3 copies - and people's replies when given the explanation are most definitely not understanding ones.

Has the Sikh organisation not wondered about the wisdom of banning a game predominantly appealing to males, and I daresay that, because of the percentage of the population mix, white males ? Not only have they needlessly annoyed many people, they've given the far right groups yet more material to add to their repetoire....nice move guys.

Expect to see;

* Starfox bannned by the anti hunt lobby - because Fox can be hurt in the game

*USSOCOM on PS2 banned as you kill non english skeaping terrorists - implying that everyone who does not speak english is a terrorists

*Conflict Desert Storm removed from sale - suggest the Iraqi army is hostile towards other nations and is racist.

*All Medal Of Honour games banned - shows Nazi's as evil killers

*Mario - suggest all Italians are cheeky plumbers

*GTA VC - Too many racist scenes/ideas to list

*Max Payne for it's portrayal of Satanists, drug users, and general low lifes

*Feminist groups attacking Tomb Raider, Buffy, Kameo, and not to mention Beach Volleyball on the GC, for their offensive portrayal (to small minority groups) of women. Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball's release is now hotly tipped to lead to an overthrow of the government unless banned.

Oh dear, looks like no game will be safe.....and that's not counting all those games with white, christian, various headgear wearing characters, which no one has really found offensive before, in fact I'd hazard a guess that most of us could not care less what a character looks like or wears. If the game is good we'll play it, end of story.

Y'see, games get a bit boring when some people don't take them for what they are, just games.
Those who saw Hitman 2 as racist need to get a life, and if saying that makes me racist then it shows how stupid this country has become...

And a note to anyone, if there is a terrorist in a game then they are solely a terrorist and nothing else, as previously pointed out since 9/11, those claiming to be Islamic terrorists are truly not, as that faith does not teach the violence they cause, nor are Sikh's encouraged to do likewise. They are not Sikh terrorists in Hitman 2, they are targets, terrorists.


PS post adapted from my reply in FOG Chat
Tue 26/11/02 at 22:47
"Gamertag Star Fury"
Posts: 2,710
This morning on SKY news they showed you the US 101st practicing a nightime assault in an urban environment, with no air cover.

Roughly 1 in 3 soldiers KIA in the simulation, and this was for one town.

Imagine if it came down to taking Baghdad ? You'd be talking casualties in the 1000's witout air strikes and armour, and air strikes are going to be a problem this time around. Collateral damage chances are too high.

On the subject of the Gulf War, and TV, I think it's right that people don't realise that, amongst the flashes, and tracers, and siny tnaks bounding across the desert, that people died. 1000's of Iraqi servicemen were killed by overwhelming firepower on the famed "Highway of Death" for no other reason than they could not surrender for fear of retaliation against them and there families. I found the idea in the film "Wag The Dog" that images could be mocked up quite a good one, though probably untrue in this case.

I think too, that we often forget details. I go to airshows a lot. My favourite plane is the B2 Stealth bomber that I last saw in 2001. Why was that plane created ? To look cool ? To draw the crowds ? Demonstrate power ? No; to breach Soviet airspace and deliver multiple warheads onto soviet cities unchallenged.

Tue 26/11/02 at 10:41
"Infantalised Forums"
Posts: 23,089
The number of games based on The Gulf are increasing, there's already Desert Storm on the Megadrive and all manner of other games that take the conflict of '91 and use it for entertainment.
You could argue that it's tasteless and trivialises warfare, reducing it to a video-game but I would argue that's the case already.

Operation Desert Storm.
Remember that? We watched SCUDS being shot down, tracer fire in the green-lit night, missiles going down chimneys, followed smart bombs from satellites as they hit factories.
And we watched all this whilst we sat with our dinner perched on our laps.
Warfare has turned into entertainment these days, it's all real-time and piped direct into your house for you to flick onto whenever the commercials come on in the middle of your sitcom.

WW2 is the basis for games, but seems to be a lot more real in a way. Hand to hand, upclose and dirty fighting. There seems to be a measure of human tragedy involved.
Yet with modern warfare, we're removed from it. It's just cool stuff on the news.
And as we're gearing up for "Desert Storm 2: This time it's personnel" (sic), I think any semblance to the notion of people actually dying is not there anymore.

I think that's why Sept 11th was so shocking to the entire world, it was right in your face. Just watching the tower burning and then the 2nd plane hits
Then they collapse, people falling/jumping.
It was uncensored, raw, real-time death. Not this flaccid combat-lite we see on the news each night with tracer fire and "collateral damage" indicators.

I think we've become immune to the horrors of today, simply because we see it over and over on the news. It makes it ok to put into video-game, because we'll just shrug and think "Yeah so what?", it's expected these days.
Sikhs protesting over gaming representation is laughable.
Like Belldandy says, the object of this game is to attack terrorists.
If the game was called "Die Turban Scum Die" or "Allah be Damned" then fine, ban it. But to censor a game for suggesting a locale, when I can turn on the news right now and watch footage of massacres in Zimbabwe seems a little hypocritical.


I'm all typed out for today, my brain is full and it's only 10:40am
Mon 25/11/02 at 22:51
"gsybe you!"
Posts: 18,825
Thats a point. Its a seemingly odd desire to play war, when so much is really going on.

And we are supposedly disgusted by it. We are an odd people today.
Mon 25/11/02 at 22:41
"Gamertag Star Fury"
Posts: 2,710
LŠR wrote:
> the Sikhs had to deal with their own massacre which
> happened in a temple in the far east. over 50 people including women
> and children were massacred by terrorsists whilst they were praying in
> the temple.

Can I just point out that these terrorists were actually the Indian police...which kind of makes them not terrorists, but anyway :)

A September 11 game is more than likley, we've already had Ghost Recon allude to it, and Delta Force Task Froce Dagger all but do it. Would such a game offend relatives ? Maybe, it depends on how it is done, and the quality of it.

Whatever happens, nothing can rewrite history, and the controversy over Hitman 2 has at least raised an awareness of an event, though the fact that the Indian police are branded terrorists is contentious to say the least.... still in the case of 9/11 it's a pretty clear cut idea of who the enemy is, or was. Any game cannot be based around events prior to it, you cannot have a situation where players must try to prevent it. At the best, a game dealing with the aftermath would be more acceptable, though still rather dull unless it was really unrealistic.

I think the question is not whether there should be a 9/11 game, but whether we really need one anyway ? There's enough fictional wars to be going on with without real life ones.

Mon 25/11/02 at 22:32
"gsybe you!"
Posts: 18,825
Media. Or rather the.

It creates all the conceptions/ideologies etc.

Its a bug*er.

An interesting one though.
Mon 25/11/02 at 22:03
"Peace Respect Punk"
Posts: 8,069
But why is it offensive to portray something similar to a real life tragedy in a game? Games have been based around World War 2 almost since games begun (Wolfenstein). Is that an insult to the memory of the soldiers who fought and died? The only difference is that WW2 was 50 odd years ago, and this tragedy was sometime in the 80s, 10-20 years ago.

And I wouldn't bet against there being a game in five years time (maybe less) with some more than passing reference to Sept 11th and the collapse of the twin towers.

Is it more of an insult to these people to recreate the scenes of what they went through or to just pretend they didn't happen? And if the scenes were recreated on TV as part of a documentary would you write in complaining about it? Would you even change the channel?
Mon 25/11/02 at 20:29
Posts: 10,489
Great post!

Can I just add something about Hitman 2. After completing it yesterday (Silent Assassin on every level + all weapons :) I couldn't see much complaint for the Sikhs (sp?) about the temple level as it isn't as bad as I thought. However after playing the game I told my mom about the complaints but I was un-aware of what happened in the 80's. Like September 11th the Sikhs had to deal with their own massacre which happened in a temple in the far east. over 50 people including women and children were massacred by terrorsists whilst they were praying in the temple. The reason I mention this is because I know how I would react if a game based around the September 11th was made, I too would want it banning. They took the massacre very seriously against their religion and that is why they complained about the game. Just imagine a game based around September 11th and what happened, I know I wouldn't like to!
Mon 25/11/02 at 17:57
Posts: 2,833
I feel the same way about controversial games as I do about drugs, food and obscene literature: if you don't like it then don't buy it. And leave everyone else alone.

Belldandy wrote:
> Does this Sikh
> orgnasation really think we are dumb enough to think turban=terrorist
> ? Just how insulting is that...

Never under-estimate the stupidity of the general public. In the past year or so: paediatricians have been forced from their homes because people thought they were paedophiles; European synagogues have been attacked because people have decided to blame Jews for all the world's problems (again); and Muslim businesses and mosques have been targeted because people really *couldn't* tell the difference between a man with a beard and a terrorist.

Perhaps games should have an IQ rather than an age rating.
Mon 25/11/02 at 17:34
"Gamertag Star Fury"
Posts: 2,710
Solskjr wrote:
> Have you heard that they're changing an in-game monument you blow-up
> that looks just-like a Sikh one on the forth-coming GameCube
> version?

Yeah, ridiculous. When, in 2001 I beleive, The Taliban destroyed two centuries old statues in Afghanistan it made about 30 seconds news time, and no one suggested anything was done to prevent it happening. But changing a game ? Christ, that's more worthy of news space isn't it ? Well isn't it ?

Like Goatboy says, white males are increasingly blamed for everything that is wrong everywhere. That isn't right, but anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is too often branded a racist themselves. Who exactly is stopping racism against this group ? Does this Sikh orgnasation really think we are dumb enough to think turban=terrorist ? Just how insulting is that...

Mon 25/11/02 at 14:40
"Long time no see!"
Posts: 8,351
Heh, good post.

Have you heard that they're changing an in-game monument you blow-up that looks just-like a Sikh one on the forth-coming GameCube version?

It's true what you say though - this really has increased people's awareness of the game, and more do now want to buy it after all this.
I wonder if it was intentional?

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