Viewing Thread:
"Can any War Film be entirely Truthful???"

As you begin to read this discussion, you'll probably be thinking to yourself "Oh no, here Hunky Funky Monkey goes again about American war movies bla bla bla, just what exactly is his problem?!"

Well, here it is:

For starters I'd just like to point out that I am a huge fan of 'good' American made war classics such as 'Platoon', 'Full Metal Jacket' and the brilliant 'Apocolypse Now' which I was lucky enough to be able to see again a couple of weeks ago. These three titles are War masterpieces which portray the harshness and realness of War, in which we see the Americans as we would most probably like to, distraught and fatigued soldiers fighting against an enemy who has passion and an element of proudness for it's country, survivg by the spirit and courage of every individual involved in the battle.

What I am not a great fan of is films like 'U-571' and 'The Patriot'. In 'U-571', the heroes are American, when in real life it was us British who captured the Enigma machine and managed to de-code all those secret German messages. This film is perhaps the main culprit in changing the nationality of the good guys!
In 'The Patriot', the British are portrayed as the ruthless killers who have no sense of mercy inside them. But, although we see how badly the English treated the American soldiers when they were captured, what we don't see is how the English soldiers were treated by the Americans when they were taken prisoner. This is done to make the audience sympathise with the 'goodies'.

Films like this are told from an entirely American perspective,(but I suppose you would hardly expect a Hollywood film to be anything different!!) mainly for an entirely American audience. These films bend the truth and indulge in flag-waving American Nationalism!

So, the question we have to ask is,
"Is it completely unrealistic to expect a War movie to be entirely truthful?"
I feel the answer is 'Yes'.
All films are fiction whether they are based on fact or not. Films based on actual events are a re-working of those events and necessarily simplify complex matters to make a watchable film. The only way a film can be classed as 'real' is if it is a recording taken of the events that actually took place on that day. They're just one version of the truth. It's easy to forgive changing characters around and changing real events if it's done for the dramatic purposes of the film, but certainly not if it's to satisfy Americanism.

With more War films scheduled for release soon, I can only hope that they will follow the paths laid down by Platoon, Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse Now, and not the fake paths laid down by the 'rubbish' American war films such as U-571 which take British pride away from our nation and claim that they were the ones who succeeded where we did, that they were the worthy winners, when we were.


Thanks for taking time to read my discussion. I look forward to reading your replies.

"France, Spain e.t.c were allid to the Americans, who kicked us out because of the appaling way we treated them, not to mention that we shipped about 3 million africans to the Americas as slaves.....anyone who thinks the British are the good guys of that time needs to get their head out of the sand !"

Hey, it is well documented that many, MANY African tribes sold each other to us and the other European nations. If a tribe was at war with another tribe, they would ask for help from France, Spain, England etc and the Europeans could take as many slaves as they wanted in payment.

As for the rest of the stuff you said, some is slightly true, other stuff is just plain wrong in my opinion.

coley wrote:
> No war films can't because truely correct because if an american made it.The
> americans would win or lose with honour they would never make out that america
> sucks.


Platoon? Born on the Fourth of July? And anyway, no film made by anyone can be truly correct about anything in real life. It's too complex. All it can do is tell 2 hours or so of relatively simple narrative, which at best can give some simplified impression of reality.

How about the classic British War films? All jingoistic, flag waving propaganda pieces full of brave, stiff-upper lipped Tommies doing their best against the Hun. Not that convicing and not that different from Hollywood to be honest.

Hunky Funky Monkey wrote:
> With more War films scheduled
> for release soon, I can only hope that they will follow the > paths laid down by Platoon, Full Metal Jacket and
> Apocalypse Now, and not the fake paths laid down
> by the 'rubbish' American war films such as U-571 which
> take British pride away from our nation and claim that
> they were the ones who succeeded where we did, that they
> were the worthy winners, when we were.


Are you saying that we were worthy winners and the Americans weren't? It sounds a rather jingoistic analysis if you ask me.

MoJoJoJo wrote:
>Perfect
> example is an American kid I know called Dave, who I talk >to on AIM

>He.
> believes :-

>USA came in and defeated Germany for us, winning WW1

Considering we'd fought the germans to a standstill and killed thousands of our own men for no considerable gain then this osunds right. the USA provided the extra man power to push the war in the allies favour. Without them thousands more would have died in a drawn out stlaemate.


>USA came
> in and defeated Germany for us again, winning WW2, while >we sat and
> watched

We didn't sit and watch, that I disagree on, but America again provided the troops and equipment, even before their entry to the war officially, to enable D Day to take place which was the catalyst for Victory in Europe.

>The Americans discovered the Enigma machine (he actually >asked me for
> proof that British sailors got it and not them)

There were different versions of the Enigma and one version was actually captured by the Americans, though not the version in U571.


>America won their War Of
> Independance single handedly. He didn't even know France, Spain and Holland were
> all fighting alongside them to bring us down.

France, Spain e.t.c were allid to the Americans, who kicked us out because of the appaling way we treated them, not to mention that we shipped about 3 million africans to the Americas as slaves.....anyone who thinks the British are the good guys of that time needs to get their head out of the sand !


>America won the French/Indian
> war. This war happened BEFORE we left America. Britain almost bankrupt herself
> defending the colonies from France and the Native Americans they had helping
> them. They raised taxes to help pay, and the Americans >revolted.

Well maybe if Britain hadn't decided to capture these places in the first place, enslave many populations, exploit them for labour, steal their arts, valuables and gold, take their peoples lands and kindly introduce loads of new diseases to thos places then Britain wouldn't have needed to defend those colonies ? We raised taxes because we were greedy and didnt give one iota about the Americans.

>America did not lose Vietnam, it was "a draw"

Several books do actually put forward a good case fo this. America succesfully held off the Vietnamese for many years, she drained the Vietnamese man power and supplies, money and forced Russia to divert money to the Vietnamese which could have been used elsewhere. It allowed American special forces to get vital jungle experience and gave the superpowers a proxy battlefield to fight upon, rather than Europe itself. on pure numbers, America neutralised more of the Vietnamese forces than the Vietnamese did to them. Of course the world could have just sat back and watched... which is what the English were quite prepared to do unless anyone else got involved.

>And that the
> IRA are the goodguys.

Firstly, you are generalising. After 9/11 you'll find hardly any American thinks the IRA are good guys. The IRA and its divisions are all now outlawed in the USA and have had funds seized. In South America US Delta troops captured 3 known IRA men last year. The IRA has not specifically attacked the USA so until 9/11 Americans probably understood
less the problems they have caused. In the same way we are pretty mute to the problem posed by international terrorism. Since 9/11 numerous individuals have been exposed in the media but our stupid laws mean they can keep on preaching their dogma of hatred and violence, and contintue to raise money. Amendments to the Terrorism Bill allwoing these individuals to be arrested were shot down in Parliament by moaning Liberals who believe terrorists have rights. They dont deserve them. The general law abiding public has the right not to live in fear of terrorism, violence, bombings e.t.c but terrorists deserve none.v Since 9/11 I believe there is no grey area anymore - people can either support the terrorists or support the coalition.

>All this just goes to show what Hollywood is doing to
> the general public.

Maybe the general public ought to read some books eh ? Instead of watching the films....

> Soon even the British will start believing the American
> version of events.

AS I've shown they are not necessarily American events, but the truth.

No war films can't because truely correct because if an american made it.The americans would win or lose with honour they would never make out that america sucks.

MoJoJoJo wrote:

All this just goes to show what Hollywood is doing to
the general public. Soon even the British will start believing the American version of events.

Or is it just the poor way in which americans are educated?

Because Americans believe they're Irish (as if being American wasn't bad enough, heh) they see the IRA as heroes

They never see the REALITY of the IRA, which is that of cold blooded murderers, fighting for a cause long forgotten.

As for the Patriot, it shows British soldiers burning a church full of civilions. In real life, if anyone was going to do that, it would've been the AMERICANS! The militia were well know for killing anyone who refused to join them. They shot, stabbed and hung many civilians. We did not.

But of course, you talk to an American, and they believe it because they've seen it on TV

Perfect example is an American kid I know called Dave, who I talk to on AIM

He believes :-

USA came in and defeated Germany for us, winning WW1

USA came in and defeated Germany for us again, winning WW2, while we sat and watched

The Americans discovered the Enigma machine (he actually asked me for proof that British sailors got it and not them)

America won their War Of Independance single handedly. He didn't even know France, Spain and Holland were all fighting alongside them to bring us down.

America won the French/Indian war. This war happened BEFORE we left America. Britain almost bankrupt herself defending the colonies from France and the Native Americans they had helping them. They raised taxes to help pay, and the Americans revolted.

Braveheart was a historically accurate film, and was almost 100% correct in every way.

America did not lose Vietnam, it was "a draw"

And that the IRA are the goodguys.

All this just goes to show what Hollywood is doing to the general public. Soon even the British will start believing the American version of events.

What we need to establish here is what a 'film' aims to do.

Films, like games and TV, are sources of entertainment. A director sitting in his directors chair, wants to make money. He does this by filling his war film with plenty of action, and if he is a better director, a good plot and characters too. It is a film, it's entertainment, so he can bend the truth a little.

If this means replacing British soldiers with Americans to appeal to a wider audience (The US accounts for the largest grosses on box - office hits) then so be it. The hopelessly (and possibly excessively) Patriotic Americans will enjoy the film all the more, and the majority of the British public (many of which, especially the younger generation, are often not loyal to Queen and Country) won't care what Nationality the soldiers are, as long as the plot, characters, and action sequences are enjoyable.

Now for the few either interested in war (me and HFM), or those that feel our war dead need to be remembered and respected (myself also), would prefer films to be
true-to-life, and, in the case of U-571, it be the British who recover the Enigma machine.

However, for Mr. Director a film like this could be a serious mal-investment. You see, all Hollywood films are released in the States first, and only if it is successful there will it move on to other countries, e.g. Britain. So a film showing the British as heroes, where other popular films have shown Americans, may not generate a high profit in the US, and therefore, never even make it to the UK!

On the other hand, a British made film would be different. Made, funded and filmed in Britain, a film fitting this description may be released in the UK first. But because the UK's economy is far smaller, less profit is made this way. So what we end up with is a lower budget film, with second grade actors and poor effects. Far less people will want to see this movie, and it will fade out of existence. That is why we may never see a box-office smash starring the British as war heroes.

But films not only REPLACE British soldiers, some even DEGRADE them! The example mentioned in the original topic was 'The Patriot'. I have not seen this film personally, but Hunky Funky Monkey describes it as:

"In 'The Patriot', the British are portrayed as the ruthless killers who have no sense of mercy inside them. But, although we see how badly the English treated the American soldiers when they were captured, what we don't see is how the English soldiers were treated by the Americans when they were taken prisoner"

Lets discuss this point a moment. I don't know if this is a war being made the subject of a film, or completely fictional events, but I find no evidence of British Troops ever behaving in this way. No soldiers or political leaders from the UK have ever stood against serious war crime charges. In fact, during World War II, while Americans tortured and killed captured German's, especially those apprehended at the concentration camps, the British treated them [almost] kindly, and even as fellow citizens. The Americans have no right to dehumanise the British. What have we ever done to them?

Another thing I would like to discuss, and you may notice me drawing further and further away from American Made war films, is ITV's latest controversial film, Bloody Sunday.

Now, nobody knows exactly what happened on that terrible day, and The Saville Inquest is still taking place (and some believe that this films total one-sidedness will affect the evidence given, and therefore the final outcome of this hearing) trying to determine what actually happened.

What we do know is that a Civil Rights march on January 30th, 1972, ended in bloodshed and 14 deaths. The Royal Paras, responsible for the deaths, maintain that the first shot was fired by an IRA terrorist, while other accounts tell of the Paras opening fire first.

The director of the film, Paul Greengrass said that the film was based on 'information already in the public domain' - i.e. evidence already heard at the enquiry. However, evidence has yet to be given by: The Royal Ulster Constabulary, the media, the IRA, and most importantly, the soldier in action that day. The result is a completely one-sided anti-British film.

The British paratroopers are shown as cold-blooded murderers - opening fire on unarmed protestors. It shows Squaddies itching to 'teach protestors a lesson' and British soldiers already wounded men in the back. Paratroopers in action that day have condemned the film, saying that many flaws are present, and none of the facts are presented.

This is another example of films alienating British servicemen and women, leaving out the facts, and bending the truth. And this film was not even American - the film was partly funded by Lottery cash - our own money being used to make a film degrading our own soldiers. I for one think this is wrong.

In conclusion, the only way to know what happened is to read books, watch documentaries or research facts. Although I understand Directors bending the truth to earn a dime, I am sickened by the way men and women who fought and died for this country being disgraced in such a way.

I look forward to comments, and further discussion of these issues.

well done Jon, great topic, i was thinking of doing it myself as i said in my last entry!
Great win anyway!

Congratulations Jon on a great win!