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"The return of add ons!"

Most people will know the history of add ons. Sega's 32X and Mega CD were made to exploit their lucrative 16bit console even though the industry was screaming for 32bit, and Nintendo's 64DD would allow extras for games and the ability to surf the net. All of these failed horribly.

So why, oh why are Sony trying to make people buy a modem and Hard drive add on to the PS2?

What my above examples have proved is that if a feature doesn't come with a console then games won't support it. If games don't support it, then gamers won't buy it, and so the cycle continues. Basically, if it ain't in the box when you buy the console it won't take off.

However, has the industry changed enough to make sure that Sony's add ons don't flop? After all, both of these things are aimed at internet gaming, which is seen by many to be the way into the future.

Not only that, but already it appears that Sony have some big-name games coming out that will support the modem- Final Fantasy 11 being the biggest.

But what about the hard drive? What will it actually do? It could save upgrades for games- but if people don't buy it then there won't be any games supporting it. It could save things from the internet... but why would people want to buy a whole new unit to do this?

Personally, I am still in the mind that manufacturers have to either provide features in the console when you buy it, OR make upgrades cheap and necissary for people to buy them.

The N64 expansion pack was bundled with games, and even required for some big titles. It was cheap, no hassel, and took off very well. Likewise, I can see the Xbox's cheap upgrade to allow it to play DVDs taking off big time- after all, for £30 you erradicate the need for a DVD player.

However, with the PS2 upgrades, things are different. The hard drive really does have no appeal to any non-hardcore gamers- it's simply too costly to warrant buying. The modem will probably take off in limitted numbers, but how many games developers will really support it to make casual gamers buy what is a fairly pricey piece of kit?

Sonnic

Strafex, I think you underestimate memory cards- I have a PS2 and that card holds data for 12 games, with plenty left! The N64 memory card, for some odd reason, was wasted by developers- Turok took up a whole card. The GC, however, will allow as many saves as the PS2 card... so you may never need more than a card a year!

Oh, as for the better ideas for HDD uses... the Xbox games could use the idea you suggest. PS2 and GC games couldn't because not ALL gamers would have a HDD! Which is the point of the topic!

Sonic

When I said "just fine on carts", I actually meant to write "saved just fine on carts".

Likewise, I never needed a memory pak for the N64.
Now if I had needed a memory pak everytime time I bought a 3rd or 4th game, a hardrive would be an incredible relief, especially with it being more reliable.

I know I could live on Nintendo's own perfectly reliable memory card, but I'd need a new one with every 3 or 4 games I had.

Also, faster loading isn't the only advantage of the hardrive.
Some Xbox develloper was talking about changes in the Gaming world where everything you did caused consequences that would be saved - something only possible with a hardrive apparently.

HelloHowAreYou wrote:
> I'm not too aqainted with the technology..
I dont seem to understand the
> concept of loading times being shortened with an HDD...

I always thought the
> HDD would be just an extra memory card but you seem to mention that it can
> decrease loading times...


It works like this:

In order to load a game, the game stored on a disc of some type (DVD) has to be copied into memory (RAM). This is far slower than copying data from a HDD to RAM. So, what Xbox games do is that they copy the whole game onto the HDD, and then, when a part of the game (eg a new level), needs to be loaded then it is loaded from the HDD, thus lowering loading times.

Oh, and it's slightly more complext than this, so don't worry about the huge amount of time taken copying the DVD into RAM... this is actually done bit by bit so to be unnoticable.

In response to Adrian's post- give an example of how Cony could make money by giving a HDD away for free... advertising sells games, and thus makes money- a HDD doesn't.

Strafex, you have proved my point. You say that N64 games work fine on carts without a HDD. Well, GC games work fine on Optical disc. Now, the HDD may increase loading, but ONLY if developers program for it... and they can't unless EVERY gamer has one. So that idea's out of the window. As for allowing you to add characters in games... errrrr... why can't this just be given within the game! After all, if you are a developer do you:
a) make a create-character feature that ALL GC owners can use within the game
b) Make the feature only usable to people with the magic box.

One thing I will giev your idea credit for is that it can replace many memory cards... but if this is that great then the PS2 HDD should take off!

Sonic

I think the HDD is to store some of the information that would usually have to be loaded off the disc allowing smoother gameplay, however I remember playing Thief 3 on my PC and it loaded it all from the hard drive and took about 15 minutes!!!!!!

I think PS2 games should follow Jak and Daxter with the use of constant background loading because I can't see something costing nearly £100 being essential for the game to run!!

I'm not too aqainted with the technology..
I dont seem to understand the concept of loading times being shortened with an HDD...

I always thought the HDD would be just an extra memory card but you seem to mention that it can decrease loading times...

then according to that then memory card MARGIANLLY decrese loading times.. how does that work..

I persoanlly think the idea that the HDD decreases the loading times is a gimmik (i seem to dissmiss everything as a gimmik dont i?)

Do any of you know exactly how this loading times decreasing works?

HelloHowAreYou wrote:
adrian you dont seem to understand

Then you didnt read my post after this. So ok Sony giving a HDD is silly. But the amount of people that will go out and buy a HDD is going to bevery small. The suggested price has been £100 for a 40GB. Its should come out the same time as Final Fantasy 10 and be used for that, only to cut down loading times. Iam a big PS2 supporter but will not get a HDD until more games support it. But then more games wont support it because nobody owns it. The HDD could be the end of the PS2 if Sony cant get it right.

If you look down the page at a post I made after I said about Sony giving away a HDD, you will see this could be a better idea.

Not every one will want the 40GB HDD. A casual gamer may pick up a 2GB HDD if it was packaged with a game for an extra £5 or something.

People say about how Sony would lose alot of money giving away a small and cheap HDD that would cost maybe £2. But what about advertising, they spend millions on that(Microsoft £500 million). So by giving something away for free they will probably gain more respect and customer support. They could easily make the money back some how with sales of PS2 software.

I know that Sony want to make money, but in my view the HDD could make the PS2 fall from the top of the console market straight to the bottom.

===SONICRAV---> wrote:
> Ah, I get the idea now Strafex. But, the fact is that such an idea will cost
> more than a memory card- say £50 as you suggest.

Now, how many GC
> gamers will buy this? As Miyamoto says, Nintendo's main market is the
> "family market", with a younger demographic than Sony's. Clearly
> younger gamers won't buy such an expensive piece of kit, and that rules out a
> large proportion of the audience.

Well it's creative software and a "super memory card" in one and for the price of a game, you get the chance to tinker with your current games.

But more importantly, what would developers
> get from using this platform? Nothing. With a modem developers can make money in
> the online sector with ads on their game servers. With a HDD developers would
> get nothing.

Some devellopers have had ideas for it.
Besides, £50 for the end of hardrives and the ability to make players and levels would be fair enough.



Put it like this: IF the 64DD WAS £50 and had a HDD instead
> of a modem, would it sell? I think not.

You didn't need HDD's on the N64 as the major games were just fine on carts.
BUT if I was having to shell out for memory cards every now and then and the 64DD had given me the option to make Perfect Dark and F-Zero levels and characters then I certainly would've bought it.

Sonic

adrian wrote:
> HelloHowAreYou wrote:
the XBox HDD has a real
> use the PS2 HDD is just a
> gimmik by sony to make some hard needed monay and to
> try and combat the
> XBox...

The PS2 HDD isnt a gimmik. It will perform the same role as the
> X-Box's HDD.

I think Sony really have to get there marketing right. I think
> that if Sony really want the HDD to be a success they need to give it away free.
> Iam not talking about giving a 40GB HDD away, but maybe only a 2GB HDD. The 2GB
> HDD would be very cheap for Sony to make, maybe each HDD costing £2 to
> make. I know that Sony would haveto spend alot to give every PS2 owner a HDD,
> but it needs to be done. If every PS2 owner at least had the 2GB HDD, all games
> could use the cacheing funtion like most X-Box games do. They also could support
> add-ons for games to be downloaded or copied from a DVD off a PS2 magazine.
>

Offering the 2GB HDD would mean that people who would never buy it, could
> still benefit from the cacheing e.t.c Sony could make sure every game uses the
> HDD.

Of course 2GB wouldnt be that much so Sony could sell different size HDD
> at different prices. This would offer a person a choice on whether to spend
> £100 on a 60GB, if they were a serious PS2 gamer. Or a casual gamer
> spending £20 on a 10GB HDD.

I think in the long run Sony would benefit
> from giving away a small HDD.

adrian you dont seem to understand
*whips out calculator*
if Sony where to give away a £2 HDD to every owner then Sony would have to spend around £40million alone then add the dreaded p&p of 50p per HDD.. therefore costing a ttal of £50million for Sony.. ..
With thatin mind Sony wil have to sell a total of around 2.5 million 10GB HDDS just to come clean on them.. its asking a bit much of Sony isnt it?

Ah, I get the idea now Strafex. But, the fact is that such an idea will cost more than a memory card- say £50 as you suggest.

Now, how many GC gamers will buy this? As Miyamoto says, Nintendo's main market is the "family market", with a younger demographic than Sony's. Clearly younger gamers won't buy such an expensive piece of kit, and that rules out a large proportion of the audience.

But more importantly, what would developers get from using this platform? Nothing. With a modem developers can make money in the online sector with ads on their game servers. With a HDD developers would get nothing.

That's why neither Sony, nor Ninty, nor MS have made their HDD do anything like what you describe. Sony and Ninty's HDD will probably not have any use for games, and MS's simply streams games- actiung as a large tempory memory store. (Something that can only be done since it come with the console).

Put it like this: IF the 64DD WAS £50 and had a HDD instead of a modem, would it sell? I think not.

Sonic

The hardrive is the whole point.
It'll have enough space so you won't ever need another memory card (your current ones will be useful for transfering information to a friend's GC), and devellopers will be able to exploit the hardrive in a similar way the the Xbox's.

The software package will just be an incentive to perchase it and give it a user base for the devellopers to target.
Also, if the software is stored on the hardrive, newer games might let you install variations of the creation station to suite their game, or you could donwload other people's characters/levels off the internet (even if the modem isn't packaged with it).

I think that Nintendo Could release an upgrade package (including broadband modem - we're talking in about 1.5 years atleast!) for about £50 that will let games owners be both creative and play online and give them space to store their creations/game saves as well as giving devellopers the option of hardrive assisted loading etc...