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We all know about the joys of importing- you get faster games sooner and with a larger choice. But what do manufacturers think of importing...
Well, it depends on the manufacturer. Take Sega for example...
Having the DC using Gigabyte discs to store games, it was assumed (with good reason) that games could never be copied onto GDs... you simply cannot buy GD writers!
So, Sega went easy on importers. Rather than employ the tactics of Sony by changing the console chip design every few months (thus making old models of chips redundant), Sega kept the same design for most of the console's life. With the Japanese DC sales not being great, Sega worked out that making it easy for people to buy imported Japanese games would be a good thing. They even went as far as drawing up plans to release a regionless DC for the Asian market that would allow gamers to chose the region from where they buy games depending on their language.
Now, Sony have the completely different view...
Using easy to copy CDs and DVDs as a storage for games, it is clear that every so often someone would crack the security codes on games. So, Sony change all their security codes (on the hardware) every few months. They even refine the design of the console so that chips wouldn't fit in the back on new models... until new chips are developed.
In addition to this, Sony want to control the market. They have no need to increase sales in Japan by allowing importing in the same way as Sega did, and so only want people to buy games in their own region. After all, they get far more profits from games sold in the UK! Also, it means they can control release dates of games (like MGS2) to coincide with major events in the gaming world (the release of the GC).
Sonic
Well, it depends on the manufacturer. Take Sega for example...
Having the DC using Gigabyte discs to store games, it was assumed (with good reason) that games could never be copied onto GDs... you simply cannot buy GD writers!
So, Sega went easy on importers. Rather than employ the tactics of Sony by changing the console chip design every few months (thus making old models of chips redundant), Sega kept the same design for most of the console's life. With the Japanese DC sales not being great, Sega worked out that making it easy for people to buy imported Japanese games would be a good thing. They even went as far as drawing up plans to release a regionless DC for the Asian market that would allow gamers to chose the region from where they buy games depending on their language.
Now, Sony have the completely different view...
Using easy to copy CDs and DVDs as a storage for games, it is clear that every so often someone would crack the security codes on games. So, Sony change all their security codes (on the hardware) every few months. They even refine the design of the console so that chips wouldn't fit in the back on new models... until new chips are developed.
In addition to this, Sony want to control the market. They have no need to increase sales in Japan by allowing importing in the same way as Sega did, and so only want people to buy games in their own region. After all, they get far more profits from games sold in the UK! Also, it means they can control release dates of games (like MGS2) to coincide with major events in the gaming world (the release of the GC).
Sonic
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Strafex wrote:
I think that many Jap Nintys were
> holding back for the DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major
> reason why?
That's a nice idea, but I have another theory...
The PS2 launched in Japan with HUGE numbers of consoles sold, bhut very, very poor game sales. In fact, after about a month of sales, the games:console ratio was under 1:1!
The reason is simply that DVD players in Japan are far far more expensive in Japan than over here, and people were getting PS2s to play DVDs with.
That's probably a major reason for Sony putting the DVD player in the console to start with- a £300 PS2 was, and still is, cheaper than normal DVD players in Japan. In fact, the Japanese PS2 price only went down just recently- for the last few months they've paid more than us for their console!
Sonic
I think that many Jap Nintys were
> holding back for the DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major
> reason why?
That's a nice idea, but I have another theory...
The PS2 launched in Japan with HUGE numbers of consoles sold, bhut very, very poor game sales. In fact, after about a month of sales, the games:console ratio was under 1:1!
The reason is simply that DVD players in Japan are far far more expensive in Japan than over here, and people were getting PS2s to play DVDs with.
That's probably a major reason for Sony putting the DVD player in the console to start with- a £300 PS2 was, and still is, cheaper than normal DVD players in Japan. In fact, the Japanese PS2 price only went down just recently- for the last few months they've paid more than us for their console!
Sonic
Yeah sort of. Both Nintendo and Sony did right.
Sony was using DVD anyway (technology they specialise in outside games so they could seamlessly integrate it into the console) so the little extra for liscencing and DVD software was a "might as well".
Nintendo was going for something different and charging 100 extra for a DVD as standard wouldn't have been so good.
But I bet the DVD quality is better on the Panasonic machine than the PS2 :-P!!
Seriously though, with less need for anti piracy measures (a simple scan can detect the size of the disk and decide whether it should be played as a movie or a game so a copied game DVD playing as a movie wouldn't work...), the machine would be based around DVD technology rather than just being added in (I'm sure that Sony didn't spend THAT much time on their DVD movie playback), and a rather unforseen drawback to the PS2 playing DVD movies...
Sony wanted to drop the PS2's price further to compete with the Gamecube and Xbox but the other DVD manufacturers quickly talked them out of it because it would probably send the DVD player market into some sort of depression (if the PS2 is nearly as cheap as normal DVD players + the option to play games...)
As for the sucess of the original Playstation, it didn't REALLY get going until long after the initial price of 300 quid had been cut.
It must've been no more than 200 when its sales really boomed.
Sony was using DVD anyway (technology they specialise in outside games so they could seamlessly integrate it into the console) so the little extra for liscencing and DVD software was a "might as well".
Nintendo was going for something different and charging 100 extra for a DVD as standard wouldn't have been so good.
But I bet the DVD quality is better on the Panasonic machine than the PS2 :-P!!
Seriously though, with less need for anti piracy measures (a simple scan can detect the size of the disk and decide whether it should be played as a movie or a game so a copied game DVD playing as a movie wouldn't work...), the machine would be based around DVD technology rather than just being added in (I'm sure that Sony didn't spend THAT much time on their DVD movie playback), and a rather unforseen drawback to the PS2 playing DVD movies...
Sony wanted to drop the PS2's price further to compete with the Gamecube and Xbox but the other DVD manufacturers quickly talked them out of it because it would probably send the DVD player market into some sort of depression (if the PS2 is nearly as cheap as normal DVD players + the option to play games...)
As for the sucess of the original Playstation, it didn't REALLY get going until long after the initial price of 300 quid had been cut.
It must've been no more than 200 when its sales really boomed.
But you didn't pay extra for the ability to play DVD movies - the PSone was £299, and I'm fairly sure the PS2 would have been £299 anyway.
The thing is, PS2 uses DVD-ROM for massive storage, so it had the drive anyway. DVD playback software is not expensive (the remote AND driver upgrade only cost £20), so at best you'd have paid about £280 for PS2 anyway. Hence I don't believe the ability to play movies increased PS2's initial price at all.
On the other hand, the Gamecube doesn't include a DVD-video capable drive - therefore it is cheaper. The Panasonic unit is, I believe, more expensive - hence it is the cost of the DVD drive that costs the extra, and not *simply* the ability to play movies.
So, in short, you're paying extra for the drive itself, and not the DVD-Video ability. After all, releasing a machine with a DVD drive that couldn't play movies would be a little daft, don't you think?
Anyway, if I've explained that well enough, you should see that I think you're part right, and part wrong - just my opinion, though.
The thing is, PS2 uses DVD-ROM for massive storage, so it had the drive anyway. DVD playback software is not expensive (the remote AND driver upgrade only cost £20), so at best you'd have paid about £280 for PS2 anyway. Hence I don't believe the ability to play movies increased PS2's initial price at all.
On the other hand, the Gamecube doesn't include a DVD-video capable drive - therefore it is cheaper. The Panasonic unit is, I believe, more expensive - hence it is the cost of the DVD drive that costs the extra, and not *simply* the ability to play movies.
So, in short, you're paying extra for the drive itself, and not the DVD-Video ability. After all, releasing a machine with a DVD drive that couldn't play movies would be a little daft, don't you think?
Anyway, if I've explained that well enough, you should see that I think you're part right, and part wrong - just my opinion, though.
Maybe, but it was better to give someone the choice, rather than to FORCE them to pay an extra 100 quid for a DVD player, when they might already have one or not want one.
Strafex wrote:
> I think that many Jap Nintys were holding back for the
> DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major
> reason why?
Or maybe Nintendo were way off with their prediction that "gamers only want games, not movies" etc.?
You have to admit, it's a possibility.
> I think that many Jap Nintys were holding back for the
> DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major
> reason why?
Or maybe Nintendo were way off with their prediction that "gamers only want games, not movies" etc.?
You have to admit, it's a possibility.
===SONICRAV---> wrote:
However, in Japan you have 2 options:
1) The
> panasonic cube will be cracked to allow DVDs to pretend to be games.
2) The
> shear scale of piracy (60% of sales), means that buying an optical disc writer
> will be worth it for the pirates.
Despite the Gamecube's poor starter sales in Japan, Panasonic's DVD version had a launch comparable to the PS2s with gamers queuing ages for one.
I think that many Jap Nintys were holding back for the DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major reason why?
However, in Japan you have 2 options:
1) The
> panasonic cube will be cracked to allow DVDs to pretend to be games.
2) The
> shear scale of piracy (60% of sales), means that buying an optical disc writer
> will be worth it for the pirates.
Despite the Gamecube's poor starter sales in Japan, Panasonic's DVD version had a launch comparable to the PS2s with gamers queuing ages for one.
I think that many Jap Nintys were holding back for the DVD version of the Gamecube. Perhaps piracy is a major reason why?
V. interesting posts both of you! Thanks a lot! :-)
Well, The_King, that was my point! The only way to copy games on the casual scale is simply infeasible.
However, in Japan you have 2 options:
1) The panasonic cube will be cracked to allow DVDs to pretend to be games.
2) The shear scale of piracy (60% of sales), means that buying an optical disc writer will be worth it for the pirates.
Oh, and you make one mistake... the GC discs hold LESS than a DVD!
Sonic
However, in Japan you have 2 options:
1) The panasonic cube will be cracked to allow DVDs to pretend to be games.
2) The shear scale of piracy (60% of sales), means that buying an optical disc writer will be worth it for the pirates.
Oh, and you make one mistake... the GC discs hold LESS than a DVD!
Sonic
Sonic,
Yeah the thing with the Doctor64 (and the other device, was it called the Super Magicom!) Is probably the only way it’ll happen, and as you say this’ll cos**t quite a bit. Also remember that the GC discs can hold as much (if not more, can’t remember!) than a DVD so really you’d need some kind of DVD writer add-on to copy the game directly from the GameCube disc. As a GameCube game simply isn’t going to fit on an 800MB CD. And the chances of a DVD-writer s**tyle Doctor 64 being affordable is VERY unlikely!
What this means is that ‘casual’ piracy, basically someone renting a game from Blockbus**ter, taking it home and copying it, isn’t going to be possible! The only way you could play copied GameCube games is to buy the Dcotor64 or whatever form it may take, then buy ripped games from another source – that or download them from the net, then burn it to a 800MB CD.
As you prolly know when a hacker copies a DVD PS2 game they have to ‘down sample or take things out if they want it to fit on a CD. For example the ripped version of GTA3 only had mono sound – this meant the when the game was downloaded form the Internet, the person doing so could then simply burn the game on a 800MB CD, thus enabling anyone with a CD writer to get a copy. So in theory you could download a ripped GC game, burning it to CD then play it through your ‘Doctor64’!
But you’d have to be a pretty ‘hardcore’ pirate to go through all that sh*t! And to be hones**t, people who’ll go to that kind of extent will never be s**topped, no matter what a games company does!
God damn them!
Providing, as you say, Panasonic don’t let the optical disc writers become the norm within the GameCube’s life cycle (which is what, 5 years tops!) I think Nintendo have pretty much got all their bases covered on the piracy front!
Good work Nintendo!
Yeah the thing with the Doctor64 (and the other device, was it called the Super Magicom!) Is probably the only way it’ll happen, and as you say this’ll cos**t quite a bit. Also remember that the GC discs can hold as much (if not more, can’t remember!) than a DVD so really you’d need some kind of DVD writer add-on to copy the game directly from the GameCube disc. As a GameCube game simply isn’t going to fit on an 800MB CD. And the chances of a DVD-writer s**tyle Doctor 64 being affordable is VERY unlikely!
What this means is that ‘casual’ piracy, basically someone renting a game from Blockbus**ter, taking it home and copying it, isn’t going to be possible! The only way you could play copied GameCube games is to buy the Dcotor64 or whatever form it may take, then buy ripped games from another source – that or download them from the net, then burn it to a 800MB CD.
As you prolly know when a hacker copies a DVD PS2 game they have to ‘down sample or take things out if they want it to fit on a CD. For example the ripped version of GTA3 only had mono sound – this meant the when the game was downloaded form the Internet, the person doing so could then simply burn the game on a 800MB CD, thus enabling anyone with a CD writer to get a copy. So in theory you could download a ripped GC game, burning it to CD then play it through your ‘Doctor64’!
But you’d have to be a pretty ‘hardcore’ pirate to go through all that sh*t! And to be hones**t, people who’ll go to that kind of extent will never be s**topped, no matter what a games company does!
God damn them!
Providing, as you say, Panasonic don’t let the optical disc writers become the norm within the GameCube’s life cycle (which is what, 5 years tops!) I think Nintendo have pretty much got all their bases covered on the piracy front!
Good work Nintendo!
Well, I don't knoi enough about the switchable GC to comment on them, but you make a great point about the disc size...
The fatal flaw with the DC was to use a CD coded to make the console think that it was a GD... and then just play games copied onto CDs. With the GC this is simply not possible- you can't copy games onto small optical discs, nor can you make the console think any other media is an optical disc.
However, there is one problem... Panasonic (who make the discs) want them to become more widley used by a whole range of applicances. So, just as Sony made the PS1 when CD writers were absurdly expensive and the PS2 when DVD writers are absurdly expensive, Ninty may find that in a few years people can copy optical discs. Mind you, it'll still be so pricey to do that only the Japanese mass pirating population could afford it!
But what I wonder is this: "Assuming optical disc writers are NEVER released, then what will piraters do." After all, every other security system has been broken- surely they'll eventually find some way around a standard GC system (standard = not panasonic version)?
My bet is that something like the "V64 doctor" would have a to be used... perhaps a peripheral CD addd on that would fit into the console's expansion port and let you play copied CDs... but that's also unlikely to take off in this country simply because it'll have to be as expensive as the console!
Sonic
The fatal flaw with the DC was to use a CD coded to make the console think that it was a GD... and then just play games copied onto CDs. With the GC this is simply not possible- you can't copy games onto small optical discs, nor can you make the console think any other media is an optical disc.
However, there is one problem... Panasonic (who make the discs) want them to become more widley used by a whole range of applicances. So, just as Sony made the PS1 when CD writers were absurdly expensive and the PS2 when DVD writers are absurdly expensive, Ninty may find that in a few years people can copy optical discs. Mind you, it'll still be so pricey to do that only the Japanese mass pirating population could afford it!
But what I wonder is this: "Assuming optical disc writers are NEVER released, then what will piraters do." After all, every other security system has been broken- surely they'll eventually find some way around a standard GC system (standard = not panasonic version)?
My bet is that something like the "V64 doctor" would have a to be used... perhaps a peripheral CD addd on that would fit into the console's expansion port and let you play copied CDs... but that's also unlikely to take off in this country simply because it'll have to be as expensive as the console!
Sonic
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