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Could it not be possible that a mad person (who sees things and senses differently to us) is actually sensing the truth? Maybe this small minority of people who we say have this problem are actually sensing what is really there which has possibly been taken away from our own senses? He visually doesn't see the pound coin on the table and then can't feel the pound coin when I place it in his hand, when for me it is so clearly there in my sight. When he says 'look, quick' and points towards the window as if to show me something, and I do not visually see anything he points out...surely if he can say that he saw something who is anyone to prove that he is lying? or that he is wrong?
Therefore, could it not be true that no God exists, and that the ultimate being is actually a Demon, whose purpose was to place false senses on every human. What we see, touch, smell, hear and taste is actually no more than what he wants us to. Could that not be possible? And yet these people who we label mad could actually be in the tiny minority of those who actually see what is correct and true?
Yes. we have a mind, but is that the extent of where 'we' go, this body I am in, while I type this on my computer that sits in front of my eyes, with my above statements could it not be that I am merely following what my senses are telling me and when I look down at the keyboard where my hands are typing these very letters, I can feel my fingers pressing against the keys, everything I am doing is based around my senses. Are they lying?
It is very hard for me to prove this is true, let alone argue that I am not in this body that you can so easily see when standing infront of me. Those are my thoughts, and if you will, that is what I believe in; that we exist as a mind, that we can think and continue to follow our senses and reasonings, all minds are different, in nearly every way, but one thing which will continue to stay the same in the majority of minds are the senses which are controlling us. Always.
Belief is the acceptance of something as true, or thinking that something could be true. You can either believe in something or believe that something.
Regarding believe in, we can believe in the existence, truth, or value of something, or believe in something that we think ought to be.
We also have believing that. This kind of belief is when you can be thinking that x, wishing that x, and feeling that x.
Believing is accepting, just like we accept who we are and what we are doing, we accept what are senses are telling us and we accept this because we see no other way?
Therefore, could it not be true that no God exists, and that the ultimate being is actually a Demon, whose purpose was to place false senses on every human. What we see, touch, smell, hear and taste is actually no more than what he wants us to. Could that not be possible? And yet these people who we label mad could actually be in the tiny minority of those who actually see what is correct and true?
Yes. we have a mind, but is that the extent of where 'we' go, this body I am in, while I type this on my computer that sits in front of my eyes, with my above statements could it not be that I am merely following what my senses are telling me and when I look down at the keyboard where my hands are typing these very letters, I can feel my fingers pressing against the keys, everything I am doing is based around my senses. Are they lying?
It is very hard for me to prove this is true, let alone argue that I am not in this body that you can so easily see when standing infront of me. Those are my thoughts, and if you will, that is what I believe in; that we exist as a mind, that we can think and continue to follow our senses and reasonings, all minds are different, in nearly every way, but one thing which will continue to stay the same in the majority of minds are the senses which are controlling us. Always.
Belief is the acceptance of something as true, or thinking that something could be true. You can either believe in something or believe that something.
Regarding believe in, we can believe in the existence, truth, or value of something, or believe in something that we think ought to be.
We also have believing that. This kind of belief is when you can be thinking that x, wishing that x, and feeling that x.
Believing is accepting, just like we accept who we are and what we are doing, we accept what are senses are telling us and we accept this because we see no other way?
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Here is my take on Dualism, just explaining it with Descartes Meditations to help.
Thomas Hyde originally came up with Dualism. Dualism states that the world is made up of two (elemental) groups. This includes distinctions between mind and body, good and evil, universal and particular. Dualism contends you must always have both of the components in question, rather than one or the other. In contrast to dualism there are two other positions philosophers take to: monism and pluralism. Monism is the view that there is one elemantal for the world and pluralism shows that many things constitute the world.
Descartes is the most famous defender of Descartes, who argues that because he had conscious thought and experience, he cant exist simply of just extended matter. His essential nature must be non material, even if was closely connected with his body. Descartes Dualism claimed that the pineal gland is the only point of contact between the body and the spirit/mind.
One of Descartes arguments for this was the use of his systematic doubt. Descartes was in search of true knowledge. Systematic doubt was his method for finding this truth. Systematic doubt is a method to doubt all things conceivable to doubt, in order to reach that which is beyond, or transcends, doubt.
To start this, Descartes would doubt and call into question everything. Anything he found to beyond doubt is certain and true. Systematic doubt is a method for finding truth.
Descartes in his meditations proves his own existance, “Doubtless, then, I exist, since I am decieved...”. This basically saying “I am decieved, therefore I am”. He knows he exists, beyond all doubt. He doubted everything with his theory, but he could not doubt that he was, at the very least, doubting.
With this Descartes comes to the conclusion that he can doubt that his body exists, because sometimes the senses can trick him and make him see things which aren’t actually there (hallucinations). He goes onto say that his entire world may be a dream put into his mind by an “Evil Demon”.
At this point Descartes through Systmatic doubt has dismissed the body as real, he asssumes he must be a “soul”. He then goes onto talking about the attributes of the soul, he said, “Let us pass, then, to the attributes of the soul”. He then produces a list of the attributes. Including nutrition, perception and thinking. Since he has no body, he disallows nutrition and perception. But he does state:
“Thinking is another attribute of the soul; and here I discover what properly belongs to myself. This alone is inseparable from me. I am - I exist: this is certain... I am therefore, precisely speaking, only a thinking thing, that is, a mind.”
Descartes arrived at this from Systematic Doubt:
1) I can doubt that my body exists.
2) I cannot doubt that I exist.
Therefore
3) I must be different from my body i.e. I must be non-physical - a soul?
Please share your views. Thanks.
Thomas Hyde originally came up with Dualism. Dualism states that the world is made up of two (elemental) groups. This includes distinctions between mind and body, good and evil, universal and particular. Dualism contends you must always have both of the components in question, rather than one or the other. In contrast to dualism there are two other positions philosophers take to: monism and pluralism. Monism is the view that there is one elemantal for the world and pluralism shows that many things constitute the world.
Descartes is the most famous defender of Descartes, who argues that because he had conscious thought and experience, he cant exist simply of just extended matter. His essential nature must be non material, even if was closely connected with his body. Descartes Dualism claimed that the pineal gland is the only point of contact between the body and the spirit/mind.
One of Descartes arguments for this was the use of his systematic doubt. Descartes was in search of true knowledge. Systematic doubt was his method for finding this truth. Systematic doubt is a method to doubt all things conceivable to doubt, in order to reach that which is beyond, or transcends, doubt.
To start this, Descartes would doubt and call into question everything. Anything he found to beyond doubt is certain and true. Systematic doubt is a method for finding truth.
Descartes in his meditations proves his own existance, “Doubtless, then, I exist, since I am decieved...”. This basically saying “I am decieved, therefore I am”. He knows he exists, beyond all doubt. He doubted everything with his theory, but he could not doubt that he was, at the very least, doubting.
With this Descartes comes to the conclusion that he can doubt that his body exists, because sometimes the senses can trick him and make him see things which aren’t actually there (hallucinations). He goes onto say that his entire world may be a dream put into his mind by an “Evil Demon”.
At this point Descartes through Systmatic doubt has dismissed the body as real, he asssumes he must be a “soul”. He then goes onto talking about the attributes of the soul, he said, “Let us pass, then, to the attributes of the soul”. He then produces a list of the attributes. Including nutrition, perception and thinking. Since he has no body, he disallows nutrition and perception. But he does state:
“Thinking is another attribute of the soul; and here I discover what properly belongs to myself. This alone is inseparable from me. I am - I exist: this is certain... I am therefore, precisely speaking, only a thinking thing, that is, a mind.”
Descartes arrived at this from Systematic Doubt:
1) I can doubt that my body exists.
2) I cannot doubt that I exist.
Therefore
3) I must be different from my body i.e. I must be non-physical - a soul?
Please share your views. Thanks.
It all gets very complicated...
"I think, therefore I am"
But then, I've no proof that anyone else thinks. Likewise, nobody else knows for sure I do.
You only see the world from one point of view. How much can you ever hope to understand?
"I think, therefore I am"
But then, I've no proof that anyone else thinks. Likewise, nobody else knows for sure I do.
You only see the world from one point of view. How much can you ever hope to understand?
The main post is in my Philosophy book too! Pages 34-36... have you done the questions Er-No? I'm stuck on number 7... I haven't really looked at it though.
^_^
^_^
it's too easy to say that our world is a dream, but if it is, how do we know all these things? dreams are usually based on reality, or real things, how do we know these things, we don't learn things in dreams.
Anyway, if we were being controlled by some greater power, then how can we think for ourselves? why do we have this much control? + if it was a simulation then why aren't all people even? why are there 3rd worlds? and people so desperate for food and water that they drink and eat food so contaminated that they know it will kill them!
Surely if it was a simulation then this wouldn't be true.
The other thing is, there are over 6 billion people living on this world, we don't know this for a fact but we've been told, are all these people living in the same dream? how can we interact with eachother? and how do we know about dinosaurs? have they been placed there within the last few hundred years by the creators of this 'world' are we an experiment? was there a race of humans before us but they moved to another galaxy and left a few humans to start a new race of their own as n experiemt? maybe they're watching us. Maybe there is absolutly no answer to this question.
Anyway, if we were being controlled by some greater power, then how can we think for ourselves? why do we have this much control? + if it was a simulation then why aren't all people even? why are there 3rd worlds? and people so desperate for food and water that they drink and eat food so contaminated that they know it will kill them!
Surely if it was a simulation then this wouldn't be true.
The other thing is, there are over 6 billion people living on this world, we don't know this for a fact but we've been told, are all these people living in the same dream? how can we interact with eachother? and how do we know about dinosaurs? have they been placed there within the last few hundred years by the creators of this 'world' are we an experiment? was there a race of humans before us but they moved to another galaxy and left a few humans to start a new race of their own as n experiemt? maybe they're watching us. Maybe there is absolutly no answer to this question.
Perhaps the life of humankind and the evolution of the universe is nothing else but an ultra-complex dream in the infinite supermind of an almighty and indifferent God, and at any moment this God will awaken from its slumber, and its fantastical and lucid dreaming will come to an abrupt end causing every aspect of what we now all existence to be obliterated in the twinkling of an eye.
I think the question is, what is reality? Is it the things we think and feel around us, and if so, do people who think differently have their own reality.
It could be that our reality is merely a dream and we will awake soon, but then that does not explain a shared reality. Perhaps none of us are real, merely someone else's dream or some sort of strange soap opera, keeping some higher entity entertained.
Perhaps there are many realities, like alternate universes, all waiting to be explored once their keys are found and their doors unlocked. This could explain a lot about what so called 'mad' people see and hear, it could all be just as real as this world is, but they have accidentally found a key.
There are so many things in this world that we do not understand, and some we may never understand.
It could be that our reality is merely a dream and we will awake soon, but then that does not explain a shared reality. Perhaps none of us are real, merely someone else's dream or some sort of strange soap opera, keeping some higher entity entertained.
Perhaps there are many realities, like alternate universes, all waiting to be explored once their keys are found and their doors unlocked. This could explain a lot about what so called 'mad' people see and hear, it could all be just as real as this world is, but they have accidentally found a key.
There are so many things in this world that we do not understand, and some we may never understand.
er-no wrote:
Although you say my post is too open, your post was completely full of
> invalid premises, that can easily be ripped apart into nothing.
Mine has no
> relevance to the Matrix, apart from the fact that what we are seeing is an
> illusion.
Whoa! ok, it's the truth, but my post was just to build upon your original post, so there shoun't have been much you hadn't already thought of in there, I honestly don't believe what your post is saying, but thats my opinion, i'm definatly not saying your wrong, the fact is, how do you know this 'might' be the truth? are you mad? do you see things that we don't? have you got a sixth sense? can you walk on water?
I don't think so, the fact is you want something to believe in, something to occupie your mind, while you search for something greater.
This is a huge stretch and anyone who wants this to be true is brave (I think) why do you question what you've known for your whole life? surely everything and everyone you've ever known and met should be enough proof that this life is as real as it gets, but in 'The Matrix' Neo was about 25+ and he didn't know much about the Matrix by then.
Maybe your the next in the line of Neo's er-no? :)
Although you say my post is too open, your post was completely full of
> invalid premises, that can easily be ripped apart into nothing.
Mine has no
> relevance to the Matrix, apart from the fact that what we are seeing is an
> illusion.
Whoa! ok, it's the truth, but my post was just to build upon your original post, so there shoun't have been much you hadn't already thought of in there, I honestly don't believe what your post is saying, but thats my opinion, i'm definatly not saying your wrong, the fact is, how do you know this 'might' be the truth? are you mad? do you see things that we don't? have you got a sixth sense? can you walk on water?
I don't think so, the fact is you want something to believe in, something to occupie your mind, while you search for something greater.
This is a huge stretch and anyone who wants this to be true is brave (I think) why do you question what you've known for your whole life? surely everything and everyone you've ever known and met should be enough proof that this life is as real as it gets, but in 'The Matrix' Neo was about 25+ and he didn't know much about the Matrix by then.
Maybe your the next in the line of Neo's er-no? :)
Fogmaster wrote:
> if 'mad' people are the minority that see the truth, I hope they enjoy it,
> whereas for the rest of us, what we see and feel is the 'normal' we have all
> been given something to believe in, everything seems real, you may not be able
> to feel a pound coin when it's obviousl;y placed in your hand, but if your
> banging a nail into some wood with a hammer and miss the nail and hit your hand,
> does that hurt? your senses are telling you a truth, it may not be a real truth,
> we do not know.
I think the story of the Matrix is what your explaining in
> this story, maybe even 'Ghost' could explain some of these questions?
Are we
> who we think we are? well not many people would want to believe anything else.
> For God, well there is absolutly nothing to prove this,
we have the bible, but
> how do we know this is an acurate story, people have used drugs throughout the
> ages which cause hilusinations, this is no joke, I mean, 40 days and 40 nights
> for Noah must have been some journey, not many people could survive that, if
> any.
Then Moses lead a few people through the deserts for 40 years! and then
> climbed a mountain, to be given the 10 commandments, that's an impressive story,
> people who choose to believe this aren't wrong, it's a dedication, and as you
> rightly said, they choose to accept that 'truth'
no ones right or wrong in
> these veiws.
Even if you did see the 'truth' would you be ready to accept what
> you saw? or would you question it again? would you wonder if it was a dream, how
> do you know what you see now isn't a dream? religion isn't necesarily the best
> thing to respect in life, but it's something to believe in, your soul has a
> purpose, you always seem to feel good about yourself when helping other people,
> why is this if yyou have no body? if it's not real, why do you have feelings?
> The Matrix was a programme, the first few tests went wrong, the humans wouldn't
> accept it because it was too perfect, well I wouldn't mind being a millionaire
> with 5 wives a ferrari for each day and a basic knowledge of HTML, why have some
> of us been taken out of this wonderful world because some people didn't like
> being rich, and the thought of never being bored again scared them!
Er-no,
> this is a great post, but it's too open, too many questions can be asked, and
> none of this can be proved, sadly, althought people say they're searching for an
> answer, whats the answer? how will they know when they've found one? will they
> bve happy when they've found it? will they be able to get back?
Although you say my post is too open, your post was completely full of invalid premises, that can easily be ripped apart into nothing.
Mine has no relevance to the Matrix, apart from the fact that what we are seeing is an illusion.
> if 'mad' people are the minority that see the truth, I hope they enjoy it,
> whereas for the rest of us, what we see and feel is the 'normal' we have all
> been given something to believe in, everything seems real, you may not be able
> to feel a pound coin when it's obviousl;y placed in your hand, but if your
> banging a nail into some wood with a hammer and miss the nail and hit your hand,
> does that hurt? your senses are telling you a truth, it may not be a real truth,
> we do not know.
I think the story of the Matrix is what your explaining in
> this story, maybe even 'Ghost' could explain some of these questions?
Are we
> who we think we are? well not many people would want to believe anything else.
> For God, well there is absolutly nothing to prove this,
we have the bible, but
> how do we know this is an acurate story, people have used drugs throughout the
> ages which cause hilusinations, this is no joke, I mean, 40 days and 40 nights
> for Noah must have been some journey, not many people could survive that, if
> any.
Then Moses lead a few people through the deserts for 40 years! and then
> climbed a mountain, to be given the 10 commandments, that's an impressive story,
> people who choose to believe this aren't wrong, it's a dedication, and as you
> rightly said, they choose to accept that 'truth'
no ones right or wrong in
> these veiws.
Even if you did see the 'truth' would you be ready to accept what
> you saw? or would you question it again? would you wonder if it was a dream, how
> do you know what you see now isn't a dream? religion isn't necesarily the best
> thing to respect in life, but it's something to believe in, your soul has a
> purpose, you always seem to feel good about yourself when helping other people,
> why is this if yyou have no body? if it's not real, why do you have feelings?
> The Matrix was a programme, the first few tests went wrong, the humans wouldn't
> accept it because it was too perfect, well I wouldn't mind being a millionaire
> with 5 wives a ferrari for each day and a basic knowledge of HTML, why have some
> of us been taken out of this wonderful world because some people didn't like
> being rich, and the thought of never being bored again scared them!
Er-no,
> this is a great post, but it's too open, too many questions can be asked, and
> none of this can be proved, sadly, althought people say they're searching for an
> answer, whats the answer? how will they know when they've found one? will they
> bve happy when they've found it? will they be able to get back?
Although you say my post is too open, your post was completely full of invalid premises, that can easily be ripped apart into nothing.
Mine has no relevance to the Matrix, apart from the fact that what we are seeing is an illusion.
Maybe there's no god or devil. I'm not a skeptic, but it's possible.
if 'mad' people are the minority that see the truth, I hope they enjoy it, whereas for the rest of us, what we see and feel is the 'normal' we have all been given something to believe in, everything seems real, you may not be able to feel a pound coin when it's obviousl;y placed in your hand, but if your banging a nail into some wood with a hammer and miss the nail and hit your hand, does that hurt? your senses are telling you a truth, it may not be a real truth, we do not know.
I think the story of the Matrix is what your explaining in this story, maybe even 'Ghost' could explain some of these questions?
Are we who we think we are? well not many people would want to believe anything else.
For God, well there is absolutly nothing to prove this,
we have the bible, but how do we know this is an acurate story, people have used drugs throughout the ages which cause hilusinations, this is no joke, I mean, 40 days and 40 nights for Noah must have been some journey, not many people could survive that, if any.
Then Moses lead a few people through the deserts for 40 years! and then climbed a mountain, to be given the 10 commandments, that's an impressive story, people who choose to believe this aren't wrong, it's a dedication, and as you rightly said, they choose to accept that 'truth'
no ones right or wrong in these veiws.
Even if you did see the 'truth' would you be ready to accept what you saw? or would you question it again? would you wonder if it was a dream, how do you know what you see now isn't a dream? religion isn't necesarily the best thing to respect in life, but it's something to believe in, your soul has a purpose, you always seem to feel good about yourself when helping other people, why is this if yyou have no body? if it's not real, why do you have feelings?
The Matrix was a programme, the first few tests went wrong, the humans wouldn't accept it because it was too perfect, well I wouldn't mind being a millionaire with 5 wives a ferrari for each day and a basic knowledge of HTML, why have some of us been taken out of this wonderful world because some people didn't like being rich, and the thought of never being bored again scared them!
Er-no, this is a great post, but it's too open, too many questions can be asked, and none of this can be proved, sadly, althought people say they're searching for an answer, whats the answer? how will they know when they've found one? will they bve happy when they've found it? will they be able to get back?
I think the story of the Matrix is what your explaining in this story, maybe even 'Ghost' could explain some of these questions?
Are we who we think we are? well not many people would want to believe anything else.
For God, well there is absolutly nothing to prove this,
we have the bible, but how do we know this is an acurate story, people have used drugs throughout the ages which cause hilusinations, this is no joke, I mean, 40 days and 40 nights for Noah must have been some journey, not many people could survive that, if any.
Then Moses lead a few people through the deserts for 40 years! and then climbed a mountain, to be given the 10 commandments, that's an impressive story, people who choose to believe this aren't wrong, it's a dedication, and as you rightly said, they choose to accept that 'truth'
no ones right or wrong in these veiws.
Even if you did see the 'truth' would you be ready to accept what you saw? or would you question it again? would you wonder if it was a dream, how do you know what you see now isn't a dream? religion isn't necesarily the best thing to respect in life, but it's something to believe in, your soul has a purpose, you always seem to feel good about yourself when helping other people, why is this if yyou have no body? if it's not real, why do you have feelings?
The Matrix was a programme, the first few tests went wrong, the humans wouldn't accept it because it was too perfect, well I wouldn't mind being a millionaire with 5 wives a ferrari for each day and a basic knowledge of HTML, why have some of us been taken out of this wonderful world because some people didn't like being rich, and the thought of never being bored again scared them!
Er-no, this is a great post, but it's too open, too many questions can be asked, and none of this can be proved, sadly, althought people say they're searching for an answer, whats the answer? how will they know when they've found one? will they bve happy when they've found it? will they be able to get back?
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