The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
This thread has been linked to the game 'Grand Theft Auto 3'.
You've probably all seen the recent article on the two teenagers who fired shotguns into a main road. If so, you'll also have heard about the death of one man, resulting from severe injuries to his temple when he was struck by one of the projectiles. Following this man's unfortunate death, the family are preparing a lawsuit. This is completely understandable, as after such a terrible loss in such unfair circumstances, whilst no amount of compensation would ever make up for what happened, it may help in the future.
The problem though is that rather than looking carefully at the crime and saying "Hey, those kids had shotguns, where did they get those?", the lawsuit is aimed at what influenced those kids to pick up the shotguns in the first place. Unfortunately for Rockstar Games, the kids seemed to be doing their best to copy the Grand Theft Auto games. It didn't make it clear in the article that this is what the kids had actually said themselves, but somebody at least had noticed the resemblance, and decided that the link existed.
Taking the case to gun licensing agencies or perhaps to the government itself would probably go nowhere. The rules are set out, there are permits, gun restrictions, age limits, state policies and many other regulations put in place to govern the use of guns in America, so when something like this occurs, its not their fault, even when it obviously is. No guns > No shooting > Less deaths. Sadly its not that simple or black and white, but surely guns are where the real blame lies.
Putting this aside, and pretending that the possession of guns had no part to play, (presumably the guns belonged to parents or older friends anyway, too stupid to lock the things away properly), the next step would probably be to see what drove the teenagers to do what they did. Given the fact that the link to Grand Theft Auto has already been made, it would seem likely that this was the influence, but isn't all that just a load of rubbish? Did those kids get influenced by Grand Theft Auto, or where they just like that anyway, and as a result, enjoyed playing games based on shooting and killing?
Many people who play GTA would probably admit to the fact that it can be enjoyable running over the occasional pedestrian, and sometimes satisfying to take part in a rampage, spraying gunfire across groups of gang members. The point though is that we do it because we know it isn't real. Its fun because nobody gets hurt. If you think about its real life counter-part, its disgusting, but in a game, its just harmless fun. The problem exists when somebody plays the game and enjoys it because they would *enjoy* the real life alternative. Its already in the user's head, the difference between right and wrong. GTA doesn't change the position of their conscience, if anything it gives them a way to release their feelings in a way that causes no harm.
The influence though is up to the courts to decide I guess, but surely they'll have to look at the kids ages and say, oops, neither of those two are 18, perhaps its the parents' fault. Surely they should never have been playing the game in the first place. Rockstar covered their backs, they submitted the game for age rating testing, and an 18 certificate was added, so its down to shop salespersons and parents to do the rest of the work.
Okay, so perhaps there is some doubt as to Rockstar's part in the crime, so why take the lawsuit to them for compensation? Basically, they are the easiest target to claim lots of money from. As I said before, it'd be tough to get even a penny from gun licensing agencies, and all you'll do to the family responsible is get the kids put away, and possibly the parents for negligence, so that just leaves Rockstar - a successful company with a massively popular product that at the same time manages to be its Achilles heel.
I don't blame the victim's family for creating a lawsuit, its totally understandable. I am fortunate enough to have never had that happen to myself or a family member, and hope that it never does, but I can't help but feel that they are going after the wrong target. After somebody dies in such an upsetting way, surely it would be good if their death wasn't for nothing, that they somehow had a massive effect on gun crime in America, rather than simply making life less fun for those who are still around to enjoy it. Sadly I feel games will continue to take the blame, and as they become more realistic, this will no doubt become more frequent.
Despite what I've said though, I do wish the victim's family luck in their case, and hope that they can go on in their lives and begin to enjoy themselves again soon.
The problem though is that rather than looking carefully at the crime and saying "Hey, those kids had shotguns, where did they get those?", the lawsuit is aimed at what influenced those kids to pick up the shotguns in the first place. Unfortunately for Rockstar Games, the kids seemed to be doing their best to copy the Grand Theft Auto games. It didn't make it clear in the article that this is what the kids had actually said themselves, but somebody at least had noticed the resemblance, and decided that the link existed.
Taking the case to gun licensing agencies or perhaps to the government itself would probably go nowhere. The rules are set out, there are permits, gun restrictions, age limits, state policies and many other regulations put in place to govern the use of guns in America, so when something like this occurs, its not their fault, even when it obviously is. No guns > No shooting > Less deaths. Sadly its not that simple or black and white, but surely guns are where the real blame lies.
Putting this aside, and pretending that the possession of guns had no part to play, (presumably the guns belonged to parents or older friends anyway, too stupid to lock the things away properly), the next step would probably be to see what drove the teenagers to do what they did. Given the fact that the link to Grand Theft Auto has already been made, it would seem likely that this was the influence, but isn't all that just a load of rubbish? Did those kids get influenced by Grand Theft Auto, or where they just like that anyway, and as a result, enjoyed playing games based on shooting and killing?
Many people who play GTA would probably admit to the fact that it can be enjoyable running over the occasional pedestrian, and sometimes satisfying to take part in a rampage, spraying gunfire across groups of gang members. The point though is that we do it because we know it isn't real. Its fun because nobody gets hurt. If you think about its real life counter-part, its disgusting, but in a game, its just harmless fun. The problem exists when somebody plays the game and enjoys it because they would *enjoy* the real life alternative. Its already in the user's head, the difference between right and wrong. GTA doesn't change the position of their conscience, if anything it gives them a way to release their feelings in a way that causes no harm.
The influence though is up to the courts to decide I guess, but surely they'll have to look at the kids ages and say, oops, neither of those two are 18, perhaps its the parents' fault. Surely they should never have been playing the game in the first place. Rockstar covered their backs, they submitted the game for age rating testing, and an 18 certificate was added, so its down to shop salespersons and parents to do the rest of the work.
Okay, so perhaps there is some doubt as to Rockstar's part in the crime, so why take the lawsuit to them for compensation? Basically, they are the easiest target to claim lots of money from. As I said before, it'd be tough to get even a penny from gun licensing agencies, and all you'll do to the family responsible is get the kids put away, and possibly the parents for negligence, so that just leaves Rockstar - a successful company with a massively popular product that at the same time manages to be its Achilles heel.
I don't blame the victim's family for creating a lawsuit, its totally understandable. I am fortunate enough to have never had that happen to myself or a family member, and hope that it never does, but I can't help but feel that they are going after the wrong target. After somebody dies in such an upsetting way, surely it would be good if their death wasn't for nothing, that they somehow had a massive effect on gun crime in America, rather than simply making life less fun for those who are still around to enjoy it. Sadly I feel games will continue to take the blame, and as they become more realistic, this will no doubt become more frequent.
Despite what I've said though, I do wish the victim's family luck in their case, and hope that they can go on in their lives and begin to enjoy themselves again soon.
Page:
If they did manage to successfully sue Rockstar I think most Games companies based in America would move their million dollar companies to Canada or somewhere.
Then America would lose out, so basically I would say that big money rules in America so nothing is going to come of this and if a precedent was set that games companies would react in a harsh way and move to a country that doesn't let morons successfully sue them.
Then America would lose out, so basically I would say that big money rules in America so nothing is going to come of this and if a precedent was set that games companies would react in a harsh way and move to a country that doesn't let morons successfully sue them.
I think you're probably right, they won't succeed. However, its possible that companies like Rockstar anticipate this kind of legal action. Its possible they weigh up the probable loss (say 1 in 10 lawsuits succeed, costing 1 million average, a figure plucked out of the air), but decide that they make that same amount of money up through cheap production and distribution in America.
Ford got caught doing exactly that with the whole Pinto scandal. It's not exactly good PR.
For Ford, perhaps not, but Rockstar Games are like Eminem, a little bit of contraversy here and there can do tonnes of good for their popularity. If GTA gets in the news for this lawsuit, then Rockstar are getting noticed even more, making people think about the content of the games and really take notice. If the case gets thrown out, then Rockstar have achieved a double win.
ssxpro wrote:
he trouble is, that
> doesn't apply to everyone.
Exactly.
There can't be any exceptions to the rule, or you'd be a week going through screening tests and the like before you can buy a game.
As for Jak II can you explain the GTA bit?
I thought it was just being a bit 'darker' as they say - just a less cartoony platformer and a more serious one. I think he gets experimented on in some evil corperation somewhere - but Daxter's still there, so it can't get too heavy.
And more guns.
In this respect I think it'll turn out as more of a 3D shooter (like Contra and similar) than a platformer. Ratchet and Clank had a load of guns, but it was still retained the platformer label.
In the shots I saw of the shooting the camera was zoomed right out - focused on the area rather than just Jak. It's pretty simple but gets rid of all the 3D shooter problems from the past - not being able to see all around you and getting surprised.
I've not heard much from this for a few months. So feel free to chuck a load of info at me - I'm ready for ya'.
he trouble is, that
> doesn't apply to everyone.
Exactly.
There can't be any exceptions to the rule, or you'd be a week going through screening tests and the like before you can buy a game.
As for Jak II can you explain the GTA bit?
I thought it was just being a bit 'darker' as they say - just a less cartoony platformer and a more serious one. I think he gets experimented on in some evil corperation somewhere - but Daxter's still there, so it can't get too heavy.
And more guns.
In this respect I think it'll turn out as more of a 3D shooter (like Contra and similar) than a platformer. Ratchet and Clank had a load of guns, but it was still retained the platformer label.
In the shots I saw of the shooting the camera was zoomed right out - focused on the area rather than just Jak. It's pretty simple but gets rid of all the 3D shooter problems from the past - not being able to see all around you and getting surprised.
I've not heard much from this for a few months. So feel free to chuck a load of info at me - I'm ready for ya'.
I subscribe to PSM2 which just had a big video and a huge review. The score for the game was 93 I believe, which is massive for PSM2. Only a few games have scored higher - MGS2, Pro Evo, Vice City, THPS3, SSX and perhaps 1 or 2 more.
The GTA related bit is because the game seems to be structured around one massive central city. In the review they said it might be as large as Liberty city, and its absolutely bustling with life. Everywhere you go there are people to talk to, buildings to explore, and other things to interact with. There are also police which mount up gradually as you cause more havoc.
From the review, they seemed to enjoy this new bit of free roaming ability, and the AI seemed fairly impressive. The police radios apparently got a little annoying, but generally it was as good as GTA. Around the free roaming city there are lots of other sub-levels I think, such as heading off into the nearby mountains. If you played the original, you'll remember the lava area. I'm picturing it as a massive city in place of that, with branches off into spider cave, the icy mountains and the canyon passes at each end, though probably there will be even more branches.
One of the criticisms PSM2 levelled at the previous Jak and Daxter game was that Daxter was a stupid annoying little rodent. This time though, they say the script is nearing hollywood standard, and the little weasel actually has some funny things to say. Good news for sure. However, the big thing for them is the detail in knock on effects. When you fix some pipes in one area, you go back to previously visited zones to find that as a result fields have flooded, and other things are leaking water when before they were completely dry. The whole world interacts as one big ecosystem.
Anyway, that's all I can remember off hand, but if you want to know more, its the latest PSM2 if you're interested.
The GTA related bit is because the game seems to be structured around one massive central city. In the review they said it might be as large as Liberty city, and its absolutely bustling with life. Everywhere you go there are people to talk to, buildings to explore, and other things to interact with. There are also police which mount up gradually as you cause more havoc.
From the review, they seemed to enjoy this new bit of free roaming ability, and the AI seemed fairly impressive. The police radios apparently got a little annoying, but generally it was as good as GTA. Around the free roaming city there are lots of other sub-levels I think, such as heading off into the nearby mountains. If you played the original, you'll remember the lava area. I'm picturing it as a massive city in place of that, with branches off into spider cave, the icy mountains and the canyon passes at each end, though probably there will be even more branches.
One of the criticisms PSM2 levelled at the previous Jak and Daxter game was that Daxter was a stupid annoying little rodent. This time though, they say the script is nearing hollywood standard, and the little weasel actually has some funny things to say. Good news for sure. However, the big thing for them is the detail in knock on effects. When you fix some pipes in one area, you go back to previously visited zones to find that as a result fields have flooded, and other things are leaking water when before they were completely dry. The whole world interacts as one big ecosystem.
Anyway, that's all I can remember off hand, but if you want to know more, its the latest PSM2 if you're interested.
Wooo!
Sounds fantastic.
I thought it would be a normal platformer kind of game.
Funny that I never heard of the city bit - I'm usually right on top of things.
*Sweats*
Is PSM2 done by Future Publishing? They're really good.
I need to subscribe to another mag, you see. I'm on Play at the moment - but a few months after I'd subcribed they changed the DVD to a crappy cheats disc. Some deal with Datel, I'm sure.
And I need some footage.
Haven't seen any actual footage of games for ages
Sounds fantastic.
I thought it would be a normal platformer kind of game.
Funny that I never heard of the city bit - I'm usually right on top of things.
*Sweats*
Is PSM2 done by Future Publishing? They're really good.
I need to subscribe to another mag, you see. I'm on Play at the moment - but a few months after I'd subcribed they changed the DVD to a crappy cheats disc. Some deal with Datel, I'm sure.
And I need some footage.
Haven't seen any actual footage of games for ages
PSM2 is by Future Publishing as you say, and I think they are excellent. They seem to have almost identical tastes to me, with the exception of football games which I avoid completely. Other than that, I agree with every score they've given for any game I own, (with the possible exception of Final Fantasy 10 which got 91, but in my opinion should get 101 :D).
Anyway, the mag is the usual stuff, news, letters, articles, coming soon, previews, reviews, a couple of dvd pages, cheats pages, next months preview, a review database, and a top scores chart from people that post in - that's actually very competitive, and they have a full league table setup for people accumulating points across different games.
As for the DVD, there is tonnes of footage. Its split into 5 categories. Firstly, accelerator. Its basically a collection of news tidbits and the big news on upcoming games. Jak II was part of it this month. Then there are the coming soon games, which have videos of each, usually about 5 minutes long. The reviews section is similar, but there is the option for an audio commentary. They are sometimes a little too chatty, it doesn't have the precision of PSW, but they know their stuff, and that's what counts. It isn't just some women with words put in her mouth. Then there are the cheats, seperated into a database, as well as videos of PSM2 readers and of the staff themselves. Finally, there is an extras section which has credits, a full showreel, and sometimes a genuine extra such as movie trailers. On every DVD there are also hidden features to find, which are revealed in the following issue.
The one criticism I have of the DVD is its speed. They used to have a simple menu that was just arrows and clicking, but now they have a virtual PS2. Clicking on an option makes the camera swivel round the PS2 to a new location. Its all very impressive, but it can take time when you're in a hurry. Its only very minor though, and only because I'm impatient sometimes. It is skippable though, if you're willing to get through the batteries on your remote that fast.
Anyway, the mag is the usual stuff, news, letters, articles, coming soon, previews, reviews, a couple of dvd pages, cheats pages, next months preview, a review database, and a top scores chart from people that post in - that's actually very competitive, and they have a full league table setup for people accumulating points across different games.
As for the DVD, there is tonnes of footage. Its split into 5 categories. Firstly, accelerator. Its basically a collection of news tidbits and the big news on upcoming games. Jak II was part of it this month. Then there are the coming soon games, which have videos of each, usually about 5 minutes long. The reviews section is similar, but there is the option for an audio commentary. They are sometimes a little too chatty, it doesn't have the precision of PSW, but they know their stuff, and that's what counts. It isn't just some women with words put in her mouth. Then there are the cheats, seperated into a database, as well as videos of PSM2 readers and of the staff themselves. Finally, there is an extras section which has credits, a full showreel, and sometimes a genuine extra such as movie trailers. On every DVD there are also hidden features to find, which are revealed in the following issue.
The one criticism I have of the DVD is its speed. They used to have a simple menu that was just arrows and clicking, but now they have a virtual PS2. Clicking on an option makes the camera swivel round the PS2 to a new location. Its all very impressive, but it can take time when you're in a hurry. Its only very minor though, and only because I'm impatient sometimes. It is skippable though, if you're willing to get through the batteries on your remote that fast.
Saw this picture and thought of this topic....
http://poetry.rotten.com/shot-au/0003/shotau3.jpg
...don't view if you have a weak stomach.
http://poetry.rotten.com/shot-au/0003/shotau3.jpg
...don't view if you have a weak stomach.
Careful what kind of links you go posting on a site like this. I wouldn't be surprised if your post is deleted or altered by the end of tomorrow.
For anyone who hasn't checked out that link, it really is quite nasty, and I wouldn't recommend viewing it.
For anyone who hasn't checked out that link, it really is quite nasty, and I wouldn't recommend viewing it.
Page: