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No, this isn't another 'Nintendo are crap at advertising' topic. It's about the state of Nintendo's software.
To be perfectly honest, I've never had a problem with Nintendo's games, they're fun to play and overall great, but their approach to some of their leading franchises is just stupid.
We've seen some amazing original titles since the GameCube was launched (Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, Doshin the Giant (even if it was to an acquired taste)) but the ongoing series' that they have are being destroyed so easily.
Okay, destroyed is harsh word to use, but it's true in some sense. Look at Mario Sunshine, for example. We'd all played Luigi's Mansion by the time we played Sunshine and in my humble opinion, Luigi's Mansion is still one of the best titles we've seen on the 'Cube. Mario Sunshine, which I would have much preferred, along with many others, to be a Mario 64 sequel, or a remake even, was destroyed by trying to incorporate FLUDD. Not dissimilar to the genius work of magic that is the Hoover in Luigi's Mansion, but it just didn't fit into the Mario-style gameplay we only just got to know. The 'dizzy heights' moments of all great platformers wasn't apparent in Sunshine because you always had FLUDD to fall back on.
It just seems as though Nintendo don't know where innovation is needed. We'd only just played Mario 64, a huge leap from the 2D days of old, and no similar kind of Mario game since, yet Mario underwent another change too soon. The people wanted an update, Nintendo didn't deliver. It did please me so much when it was revealed Mario 128 was going ahead and Sunshine was simply to 'fill the gap', but that's not really an excuse.
But this isn't just about Mario Sunshine. Metroid Prime, to me, is the greatest thing the Cube has seen yet. The Metroid series hadn't really changed at all in all of its life and in order for it to be a real hit it did need a drastic change. Because there are so many 3D adventure games, it could have ended up mediocre... but it didn't. Retro did what Nintendo couldn't.
Zelda wasn't in need of drastic changes and luckily Nintendo answered our prayers and gave us an update instead of this first-person-boomerang-'em-up it could have turned into (but wouldn't, really). The only subtle change (Link's boat) did change the game in minor ways for the worse, but for the most part, Wind Waker delivers.
My only worry is, the children of the future (Pikmin, Mario Kart) that will be coming to the 'Cube soon could be let downs. Pikmin's changes are just plain stupid (oooh, great, a Random Level Generator) and although there's no doubt it my mind that Mario Kart will be amazing, you never know.
Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but innovation in the right places seemingly isn't Nintendo's strong point. Retro did a great job on one of the longest running franchises and Nintendo didn't, that's the bottom line.
Discuss.
To be perfectly honest, I've never had a problem with Nintendo's games, they're fun to play and overall great, but their approach to some of their leading franchises is just stupid.
We've seen some amazing original titles since the GameCube was launched (Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, Doshin the Giant (even if it was to an acquired taste)) but the ongoing series' that they have are being destroyed so easily.
Okay, destroyed is harsh word to use, but it's true in some sense. Look at Mario Sunshine, for example. We'd all played Luigi's Mansion by the time we played Sunshine and in my humble opinion, Luigi's Mansion is still one of the best titles we've seen on the 'Cube. Mario Sunshine, which I would have much preferred, along with many others, to be a Mario 64 sequel, or a remake even, was destroyed by trying to incorporate FLUDD. Not dissimilar to the genius work of magic that is the Hoover in Luigi's Mansion, but it just didn't fit into the Mario-style gameplay we only just got to know. The 'dizzy heights' moments of all great platformers wasn't apparent in Sunshine because you always had FLUDD to fall back on.
It just seems as though Nintendo don't know where innovation is needed. We'd only just played Mario 64, a huge leap from the 2D days of old, and no similar kind of Mario game since, yet Mario underwent another change too soon. The people wanted an update, Nintendo didn't deliver. It did please me so much when it was revealed Mario 128 was going ahead and Sunshine was simply to 'fill the gap', but that's not really an excuse.
But this isn't just about Mario Sunshine. Metroid Prime, to me, is the greatest thing the Cube has seen yet. The Metroid series hadn't really changed at all in all of its life and in order for it to be a real hit it did need a drastic change. Because there are so many 3D adventure games, it could have ended up mediocre... but it didn't. Retro did what Nintendo couldn't.
Zelda wasn't in need of drastic changes and luckily Nintendo answered our prayers and gave us an update instead of this first-person-boomerang-'em-up it could have turned into (but wouldn't, really). The only subtle change (Link's boat) did change the game in minor ways for the worse, but for the most part, Wind Waker delivers.
My only worry is, the children of the future (Pikmin, Mario Kart) that will be coming to the 'Cube soon could be let downs. Pikmin's changes are just plain stupid (oooh, great, a Random Level Generator) and although there's no doubt it my mind that Mario Kart will be amazing, you never know.
Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but innovation in the right places seemingly isn't Nintendo's strong point. Retro did a great job on one of the longest running franchises and Nintendo didn't, that's the bottom line.
Discuss.
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No, this isn't another 'Nintendo are crap at advertising' topic. It's about the state of Nintendo's software.
To be perfectly honest, I've never had a problem with Nintendo's games, they're fun to play and overall great, but their approach to some of their leading franchises is just stupid.
We've seen some amazing original titles since the GameCube was launched (Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, Doshin the Giant (even if it was to an acquired taste)) but the ongoing series' that they have are being destroyed so easily.
Okay, destroyed is harsh word to use, but it's true in some sense. Look at Mario Sunshine, for example. We'd all played Luigi's Mansion by the time we played Sunshine and in my humble opinion, Luigi's Mansion is still one of the best titles we've seen on the 'Cube. Mario Sunshine, which I would have much preferred, along with many others, to be a Mario 64 sequel, or a remake even, was destroyed by trying to incorporate FLUDD. Not dissimilar to the genius work of magic that is the Hoover in Luigi's Mansion, but it just didn't fit into the Mario-style gameplay we only just got to know. The 'dizzy heights' moments of all great platformers wasn't apparent in Sunshine because you always had FLUDD to fall back on.
It just seems as though Nintendo don't know where innovation is needed. We'd only just played Mario 64, a huge leap from the 2D days of old, and no similar kind of Mario game since, yet Mario underwent another change too soon. The people wanted an update, Nintendo didn't deliver. It did please me so much when it was revealed Mario 128 was going ahead and Sunshine was simply to 'fill the gap', but that's not really an excuse.
But this isn't just about Mario Sunshine. Metroid Prime, to me, is the greatest thing the Cube has seen yet. The Metroid series hadn't really changed at all in all of its life and in order for it to be a real hit it did need a drastic change. Because there are so many 3D adventure games, it could have ended up mediocre... but it didn't. Retro did what Nintendo couldn't.
Zelda wasn't in need of drastic changes and luckily Nintendo answered our prayers and gave us an update instead of this first-person-boomerang-'em-up it could have turned into (but wouldn't, really). The only subtle change (Link's boat) did change the game in minor ways for the worse, but for the most part, Wind Waker delivers.
My only worry is, the children of the future (Pikmin, Mario Kart) that will be coming to the 'Cube soon could be let downs. Pikmin's changes are just plain stupid (oooh, great, a Random Level Generator) and although there's no doubt it my mind that Mario Kart will be amazing, you never know.
Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but innovation in the right places seemingly isn't Nintendo's strong point. Retro did a great job on one of the longest running franchises and Nintendo didn't, that's the bottom line.
Discuss.
To be perfectly honest, I've never had a problem with Nintendo's games, they're fun to play and overall great, but their approach to some of their leading franchises is just stupid.
We've seen some amazing original titles since the GameCube was launched (Pikmin, Luigi's Mansion, Doshin the Giant (even if it was to an acquired taste)) but the ongoing series' that they have are being destroyed so easily.
Okay, destroyed is harsh word to use, but it's true in some sense. Look at Mario Sunshine, for example. We'd all played Luigi's Mansion by the time we played Sunshine and in my humble opinion, Luigi's Mansion is still one of the best titles we've seen on the 'Cube. Mario Sunshine, which I would have much preferred, along with many others, to be a Mario 64 sequel, or a remake even, was destroyed by trying to incorporate FLUDD. Not dissimilar to the genius work of magic that is the Hoover in Luigi's Mansion, but it just didn't fit into the Mario-style gameplay we only just got to know. The 'dizzy heights' moments of all great platformers wasn't apparent in Sunshine because you always had FLUDD to fall back on.
It just seems as though Nintendo don't know where innovation is needed. We'd only just played Mario 64, a huge leap from the 2D days of old, and no similar kind of Mario game since, yet Mario underwent another change too soon. The people wanted an update, Nintendo didn't deliver. It did please me so much when it was revealed Mario 128 was going ahead and Sunshine was simply to 'fill the gap', but that's not really an excuse.
But this isn't just about Mario Sunshine. Metroid Prime, to me, is the greatest thing the Cube has seen yet. The Metroid series hadn't really changed at all in all of its life and in order for it to be a real hit it did need a drastic change. Because there are so many 3D adventure games, it could have ended up mediocre... but it didn't. Retro did what Nintendo couldn't.
Zelda wasn't in need of drastic changes and luckily Nintendo answered our prayers and gave us an update instead of this first-person-boomerang-'em-up it could have turned into (but wouldn't, really). The only subtle change (Link's boat) did change the game in minor ways for the worse, but for the most part, Wind Waker delivers.
My only worry is, the children of the future (Pikmin, Mario Kart) that will be coming to the 'Cube soon could be let downs. Pikmin's changes are just plain stupid (oooh, great, a Random Level Generator) and although there's no doubt it my mind that Mario Kart will be amazing, you never know.
Maybe this is me being pessimistic, but innovation in the right places seemingly isn't Nintendo's strong point. Retro did a great job on one of the longest running franchises and Nintendo didn't, that's the bottom line.
Discuss.
Although Metroid Prime is clearly a masterpiece, it didn't quite do it for me.I've enjoyed and played Medal of Honor by the company some gamers love to hate, EA.
Nintendo are changing their franchises way too much. Sure, we want innovation, plenty of stuff that's new on our GameCubes. However, we want the current franchises to stay the same!
For example, why was Mario Bros 3 on the NES such a great hit that it is still the best selling title of all time?
Answer: Because it was an update to a brilliant classic that every Nintendo gamer enjoyed.
That is also the reason for Super Mario World's success. And Nintendo went in the right direction with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island - by creating ANOTHER franchise, Baby Mario, they could expand more in the Mario universe and create even more whacky games.
Super Mario 64 was the perfect introduction to 3D Super Mario gaming. It had the cheesy 'stretch Mario's face' at the beginning, just a quirky yet un-necessary feature that just added to the game's hilarity, and the way Super Mario 64 played was just perfect, being what gamers couldn't have dreamed, but wanted in a three dimensional platformer. It stuck true to the series and even had the classic, "Bowser has captured Princess Toadstool" story.
Sadly, as you have mentioned, this has gone in Super Mario Sunshine - introducing Baby Bowser, ANOTHER Koopaling, and a weird new place where the monsters aren't the same and you have to get around using a stupid backpack. I still want to see a classic Mario game which involved mushrooms to make you big/small, fireflowers to give you the flame-ball power, stars that make you invincible, and maybe a misture of the powerups available in Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World, as well as the ability to ride Yoshi...properly!
This is just one way in which Nintendo can 'save' the Mario series. But they need to do similar with their other franchises to keep them going. Bring back classic features, storylines, and don't change the games too much. That is another reason why Majora's Mask was so successful! It looked almost identical to Ocarina of Time, but had a new storyline to it. It even contained some enemies from the Super Nintendo game, A Link to the Past (as did Wind Waker). It's that kind of innovation Nintendo need in their current franchises.
However, Nintendo need to improve on their creation of new franchises - especially for the western market. They've conquered the Japanese market with their RPGs that never get released elsewhere. That could be a factor for their poor figures in the western regions. The Playstation 2 is so successful partly because of the Final Fantasy games and similar spin-offs. American and European gamers have asked Nintendo for similar, and they still stick to their RPGs being Japan only! Sure, we're getting an exclusive Final Fantasy game now, but isn't it co-operative play only? Surely that will seem like a mickey take to those who were expecting a great single player game!
Nintendo are also missing out on the adult market, only allowing two games that I can think of to be published by themselves for the more mature gamer. Eternal Darkness by Silicon Knights, one of the scariest games ever, and Soul Calibur II by Namco, a quality slash and beat 'em up that has sold more copies on the GameCube than any other format. They need to do something like Grand Theft Auto and True Crime - but new. There isn't anything for the older gamer who isn't interested in playing with fat plumbers or monkeys trapped in balls. The gamers can see this, so why can't Nintendo?
As much as I am a huge Nintendo fan, I've been playing my Xbox a heck of a lot more recently. Partly because of Xbox live, but also because there are more multiformat games that I've enjoyed a lot more than some of Nintendo's latest games that should be my favourites, but aren't.
Nintendo have a problem, and they need to sort it out by N5 or face the same 'Welcome to the third place' jokes and criticism spawning from the PS2's original advertisment campaign.
Nintendo are changing their franchises way too much. Sure, we want innovation, plenty of stuff that's new on our GameCubes. However, we want the current franchises to stay the same!
For example, why was Mario Bros 3 on the NES such a great hit that it is still the best selling title of all time?
Answer: Because it was an update to a brilliant classic that every Nintendo gamer enjoyed.
That is also the reason for Super Mario World's success. And Nintendo went in the right direction with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island - by creating ANOTHER franchise, Baby Mario, they could expand more in the Mario universe and create even more whacky games.
Super Mario 64 was the perfect introduction to 3D Super Mario gaming. It had the cheesy 'stretch Mario's face' at the beginning, just a quirky yet un-necessary feature that just added to the game's hilarity, and the way Super Mario 64 played was just perfect, being what gamers couldn't have dreamed, but wanted in a three dimensional platformer. It stuck true to the series and even had the classic, "Bowser has captured Princess Toadstool" story.
Sadly, as you have mentioned, this has gone in Super Mario Sunshine - introducing Baby Bowser, ANOTHER Koopaling, and a weird new place where the monsters aren't the same and you have to get around using a stupid backpack. I still want to see a classic Mario game which involved mushrooms to make you big/small, fireflowers to give you the flame-ball power, stars that make you invincible, and maybe a misture of the powerups available in Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World, as well as the ability to ride Yoshi...properly!
This is just one way in which Nintendo can 'save' the Mario series. But they need to do similar with their other franchises to keep them going. Bring back classic features, storylines, and don't change the games too much. That is another reason why Majora's Mask was so successful! It looked almost identical to Ocarina of Time, but had a new storyline to it. It even contained some enemies from the Super Nintendo game, A Link to the Past (as did Wind Waker). It's that kind of innovation Nintendo need in their current franchises.
However, Nintendo need to improve on their creation of new franchises - especially for the western market. They've conquered the Japanese market with their RPGs that never get released elsewhere. That could be a factor for their poor figures in the western regions. The Playstation 2 is so successful partly because of the Final Fantasy games and similar spin-offs. American and European gamers have asked Nintendo for similar, and they still stick to their RPGs being Japan only! Sure, we're getting an exclusive Final Fantasy game now, but isn't it co-operative play only? Surely that will seem like a mickey take to those who were expecting a great single player game!
Nintendo are also missing out on the adult market, only allowing two games that I can think of to be published by themselves for the more mature gamer. Eternal Darkness by Silicon Knights, one of the scariest games ever, and Soul Calibur II by Namco, a quality slash and beat 'em up that has sold more copies on the GameCube than any other format. They need to do something like Grand Theft Auto and True Crime - but new. There isn't anything for the older gamer who isn't interested in playing with fat plumbers or monkeys trapped in balls. The gamers can see this, so why can't Nintendo?
As much as I am a huge Nintendo fan, I've been playing my Xbox a heck of a lot more recently. Partly because of Xbox live, but also because there are more multiformat games that I've enjoyed a lot more than some of Nintendo's latest games that should be my favourites, but aren't.
Nintendo have a problem, and they need to sort it out by N5 or face the same 'Welcome to the third place' jokes and criticism spawning from the PS2's original advertisment campaign.
Both good posts, I own a PS2 & Cube and will get a Xbox at Xmas, as with any console I'm very selective as to what titles I buy, hence have only bought F-Zero and Colin McRae 4 in the last 3 months, will also get Mario Kart and some Xbox games when I get my new console.
I think Ninty are falling into the PS2 line of things ie releasing more and more titles but probably only 10% of them are classed as "must have".
I'm over 30 and cannot wait for Mario Kart, can't see how it doesn't appeal to older gamers as well as the younger ones (especially if - as most Cube owners have, they have owned a SNES or N64 in the past)
Ninty could do with some quality titles in other genre's but that probably wont happen, can't see them changing the way they've always been which is a shame.
I think Ninty are falling into the PS2 line of things ie releasing more and more titles but probably only 10% of them are classed as "must have".
I'm over 30 and cannot wait for Mario Kart, can't see how it doesn't appeal to older gamers as well as the younger ones (especially if - as most Cube owners have, they have owned a SNES or N64 in the past)
Ninty could do with some quality titles in other genre's but that probably wont happen, can't see them changing the way they've always been which is a shame.
Ninty's problem is they have no online gaming plans.
Xbox Live beats everything Cube offers into a smooshy pulp.
Xbox Live beats everything Cube offers into a smooshy pulp.
Super Mario sunshine is the greatest game of all time, in my opinion
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The introduction of FLUDD really was the killer for Mario Sunshine. Instead of Nintendo focusing on a proper Mario evolution (bringing the NES games power-ups, like you said, and other items that were missing from Mario 64).
Playing those bonus levels that excluded FLUDD just made me realise how good Sunshine could have been and how bad of an idea FLUDD was. Zelda worked well because it was just another chain in the ever-popular Zelda series and it didn't need any drastic changes to keep people happy.
Having Metroid Prime as an FPS/Adventure was probably the best decision in the past 3-4 years, getting another stale adventure game could have tarnished Metroid's high-calibre name and such a genius mix of genres really suits the Metroid series.
As for new games, I have to agree with you about the Japanese RPG's, Nintendo seem to know what Japanese gamers want (Giftpia, Animal Crossing, Tale of Symphonia (even though it isn't first-party)), but are too afraid to bring these titles to the west (maybe not with AC) incase they don't do very well.
Playing those bonus levels that excluded FLUDD just made me realise how good Sunshine could have been and how bad of an idea FLUDD was. Zelda worked well because it was just another chain in the ever-popular Zelda series and it didn't need any drastic changes to keep people happy.
Having Metroid Prime as an FPS/Adventure was probably the best decision in the past 3-4 years, getting another stale adventure game could have tarnished Metroid's high-calibre name and such a genius mix of genres really suits the Metroid series.
As for new games, I have to agree with you about the Japanese RPG's, Nintendo seem to know what Japanese gamers want (Giftpia, Animal Crossing, Tale of Symphonia (even though it isn't first-party)), but are too afraid to bring these titles to the west (maybe not with AC) incase they don't do very well.
I'll admit, those mini-level were pure class.
a game made purely of them would easily top Sunshines brilliance.
a game made purely of them would easily top Sunshines brilliance.
Doshin the Giant is the biggest load of crap I've ever played, and the only game I have ever returned because I was so disgusted with it.
And this is someone who kept their copy of Clone Wars.
And this is someone who kept their copy of Clone Wars.
I returned PIkmin.
But DtG is very, very slow and annoying
But DtG is very, very slow and annoying
Tiltawhirl :- In your opinon. I hate X-box live.
Rickoss :- *deep breath*. Super Mario Sunshine is an absolutly fantastic game. In one argument I hear Nintendo messed around too much and in the other I hear Nintendo didn't do enough. The single location and the introduction of FLUDD maybe a big change but this is the same with Zelda (but I'll come back to that point). FLUDD added a wealth of new options for a Mario Platformer, and the location is just that... a location... the graphics of the area. It did miss many a type of level but this entire seaside idea with many a resident has NEVER been done in a Mario game before. Yes it may of needed more variety (although despite looking the same each level presented it's own variety) but this game proved that Nintendo can rule the platform genre.
Let me explain.
Many many many platformers these days have long surpassed simple tree levels of underwater levels. That has all been and done, now we are faced with factories and theme parks and highly strange levels. This is what Sunshine does to some reductive effect, these levels are like those you get in the million of other platformers. And mixed with the Mario essence of fun forced proof that Nintendo rule the genre. FLUDD was also a fantastic feature that helped levitate the Mario gameplay to the next generation.
But this is no different to Zelda, Link now has a ship, much like Mario's FLUDD and the graphics now make the game look very different, much the same with Mario's location. In fact Link could even fly in this game making Zelda even more of a movement from it's N64 days. In fact I enjoyed boating.
Mario Kart has been done 3 TIMES exactly the same. Not trying to be funny here but if I want to play Mario Kart 64 I will... I do not want the same game with better graphics. Not at all!
Personally I am happy that Nintendo made a "different" Mario platformer. It didn't seem traditonal but then when did Nintendo claim it would be? It was still as fun as any other Mario game... which is the main point.
As for Retro doing something Nintendo can't you are forgetting that Retro ARE Nintendo... they are first party... they have Nintendo employee's inside them... Metroid Prime is a Nintendo game developed like every other game by one of their in house developers.
And finally Pikmin offers multiplayer, new Pikmin and new puzzles, no time limit, an increased variety of enemies and co-operative single player gameplay. But you can just mention the random level generator if you want.
Rickoss :- *deep breath*. Super Mario Sunshine is an absolutly fantastic game. In one argument I hear Nintendo messed around too much and in the other I hear Nintendo didn't do enough. The single location and the introduction of FLUDD maybe a big change but this is the same with Zelda (but I'll come back to that point). FLUDD added a wealth of new options for a Mario Platformer, and the location is just that... a location... the graphics of the area. It did miss many a type of level but this entire seaside idea with many a resident has NEVER been done in a Mario game before. Yes it may of needed more variety (although despite looking the same each level presented it's own variety) but this game proved that Nintendo can rule the platform genre.
Let me explain.
Many many many platformers these days have long surpassed simple tree levels of underwater levels. That has all been and done, now we are faced with factories and theme parks and highly strange levels. This is what Sunshine does to some reductive effect, these levels are like those you get in the million of other platformers. And mixed with the Mario essence of fun forced proof that Nintendo rule the genre. FLUDD was also a fantastic feature that helped levitate the Mario gameplay to the next generation.
But this is no different to Zelda, Link now has a ship, much like Mario's FLUDD and the graphics now make the game look very different, much the same with Mario's location. In fact Link could even fly in this game making Zelda even more of a movement from it's N64 days. In fact I enjoyed boating.
Mario Kart has been done 3 TIMES exactly the same. Not trying to be funny here but if I want to play Mario Kart 64 I will... I do not want the same game with better graphics. Not at all!
Personally I am happy that Nintendo made a "different" Mario platformer. It didn't seem traditonal but then when did Nintendo claim it would be? It was still as fun as any other Mario game... which is the main point.
As for Retro doing something Nintendo can't you are forgetting that Retro ARE Nintendo... they are first party... they have Nintendo employee's inside them... Metroid Prime is a Nintendo game developed like every other game by one of their in house developers.
And finally Pikmin offers multiplayer, new Pikmin and new puzzles, no time limit, an increased variety of enemies and co-operative single player gameplay. But you can just mention the random level generator if you want.
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