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Before I begin, I’d just like to say that this is not going to be the old "Do games cause violence" thing. OK? Right, with that out the way, let’s get started.
Everyone on the Earth seems to value morals and ethics higher than anything else. If you’re a moral person, then you’re a good person. But recently I found out that in Metal Gear Solid 2, there is a point where you have to shoot a pregnant women. In all fairness shooting anyone’s wrong, but a pregnant women? Whoever came up with that must have been sick... Possibly.
Morality has never been abundant in video games. Look at the Rainbow 6 games. Going around on Covert Ops surreptitiously killing people is hardly morally correct is it? The same goes for games like Cannon Fodder and Sudden Strike. But surely none of that’s as bad as killing a pregnant women, is it?
The thing is though, (And here’s the age-old argument) it IS just a game. It’s not real. But even so...
So, here’s the question. Would you not play a certain because of the moral issues it raises?
Let’s look at this from two points of view.
For: 1) Games are just that, games, they’re not real and they never will be.
2) For nearly everyone who plays’s videogames, they are an escape. An escape, possibly, from some kind of trauma that’s happening to them at that time. An escape from anything really. Just somewhere to let off steam and unleash their anger and aggression.
3) Although this might sound a bit perverted, I enjoy doing things like that in games. You can do things that you would never be able to do in real life. Like breaking into a military base and dropping a bomb in there. Or, indeed, shooting a pregnant women. Of course I would never do anything so disgusting in real life because it’s sick, horrible and a stupid waste. But games are made so people can do things that they’ve never done before, and are likely never to do... ever.
Conclusion: It’s actually all right for things like this to be put into games. Everyone knows and understands the fact that games are games, real life is real life and there is a huge difference between the two. In all honesty, if developers were denied the freedom that they are given to put anything, within reason, into games then you’d find a lot of people getting frustrated and maybe ending up doing something stupid. As I said, they are an escape. If you deny someone something then they are going to want it more and more.
And now for the flip side of the coin.
Against: 1) It’s plain sick. Shooting a pregnant women, in effect killing two lives, is horrible. Some people out there do have difficulty understanding the difference between reality and games. It’s not their fault, some have brain disorders, some are Ortistic… it just happens and no one can be blamed for it. The fact is, however unlikely, someone COULD be influenced by it and could be driven to something stupid and regretful.
2) There’s going to be a whole lot of backlash when MSG2 gets released if it has this in it. Angry parents and Clergymen are going to be protesting mightily about the "Damage it might cause to our children’s minds" It would be a whole lot easier for Konami and Sony to take it out and not suffer the public rebuke they are going to face.
Overall Conclusion: On the whole I think it’s perfectly fine to have scenes like this in games. As long as it’s understood by the general public that it’s just a game, and that little Tommy isn’t going to go nick a gun and blow someone’s brains out. Parents have to understand that children aren’t as stupid and easily warped as they think. If a parent or indeed anyone has a concern about this kind of thing then they should have a little talk with their child and make sure they understand what’s what, and that doing things like that in real life would be thoughtless, wasteful, regrettable and daft.
So my answer to my own question. Would I not play a game because of the moral issues it raises? No, I know what’s what. What’s real and what’s not. And I understand that doing something like that is wrong. I’m just playing the game for fun and nothing more.
Your thoughts?
RBS
Everyone on the Earth seems to value morals and ethics higher than anything else. If you’re a moral person, then you’re a good person. But recently I found out that in Metal Gear Solid 2, there is a point where you have to shoot a pregnant women. In all fairness shooting anyone’s wrong, but a pregnant women? Whoever came up with that must have been sick... Possibly.
Morality has never been abundant in video games. Look at the Rainbow 6 games. Going around on Covert Ops surreptitiously killing people is hardly morally correct is it? The same goes for games like Cannon Fodder and Sudden Strike. But surely none of that’s as bad as killing a pregnant women, is it?
The thing is though, (And here’s the age-old argument) it IS just a game. It’s not real. But even so...
So, here’s the question. Would you not play a certain because of the moral issues it raises?
Let’s look at this from two points of view.
For: 1) Games are just that, games, they’re not real and they never will be.
2) For nearly everyone who plays’s videogames, they are an escape. An escape, possibly, from some kind of trauma that’s happening to them at that time. An escape from anything really. Just somewhere to let off steam and unleash their anger and aggression.
3) Although this might sound a bit perverted, I enjoy doing things like that in games. You can do things that you would never be able to do in real life. Like breaking into a military base and dropping a bomb in there. Or, indeed, shooting a pregnant women. Of course I would never do anything so disgusting in real life because it’s sick, horrible and a stupid waste. But games are made so people can do things that they’ve never done before, and are likely never to do... ever.
Conclusion: It’s actually all right for things like this to be put into games. Everyone knows and understands the fact that games are games, real life is real life and there is a huge difference between the two. In all honesty, if developers were denied the freedom that they are given to put anything, within reason, into games then you’d find a lot of people getting frustrated and maybe ending up doing something stupid. As I said, they are an escape. If you deny someone something then they are going to want it more and more.
And now for the flip side of the coin.
Against: 1) It’s plain sick. Shooting a pregnant women, in effect killing two lives, is horrible. Some people out there do have difficulty understanding the difference between reality and games. It’s not their fault, some have brain disorders, some are Ortistic… it just happens and no one can be blamed for it. The fact is, however unlikely, someone COULD be influenced by it and could be driven to something stupid and regretful.
2) There’s going to be a whole lot of backlash when MSG2 gets released if it has this in it. Angry parents and Clergymen are going to be protesting mightily about the "Damage it might cause to our children’s minds" It would be a whole lot easier for Konami and Sony to take it out and not suffer the public rebuke they are going to face.
Overall Conclusion: On the whole I think it’s perfectly fine to have scenes like this in games. As long as it’s understood by the general public that it’s just a game, and that little Tommy isn’t going to go nick a gun and blow someone’s brains out. Parents have to understand that children aren’t as stupid and easily warped as they think. If a parent or indeed anyone has a concern about this kind of thing then they should have a little talk with their child and make sure they understand what’s what, and that doing things like that in real life would be thoughtless, wasteful, regrettable and daft.
So my answer to my own question. Would I not play a game because of the moral issues it raises? No, I know what’s what. What’s real and what’s not. And I understand that doing something like that is wrong. I’m just playing the game for fun and nothing more.
Your thoughts?
RBS
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I'm going to stay out of the morality argument, because I'll rant on and on and my head will hurt and I'll end up in the special room again.
RastaBillySkank wrote:
> Hey! I wasn't crusading! Just trying to make an
> interesting discussion!
That's why I wasn't pointing any fingers! It's just my opinion, it wasn't aimed at you specifically!
> Hey! I wasn't crusading! Just trying to make an
> interesting discussion!
That's why I wasn't pointing any fingers! It's just my opinion, it wasn't aimed at you specifically!
Why is it wrong to kill a pregnant woman in the game?
What if she's the chief bad guy?
What if you decide not to kill her, she presses the button to blow up london or whatever?
Just because she's pregnant, doesn't make her a good gal in the game.
This is the sort of thing that annoys me. It's like that stupid "you mustn't hit girls" Why not? Ok, if they haven't done anything, then you don't, just like you don't hit a bloke for no reason.
But say there was a big pub brawl or something, a woman is just as capable of smashing a bottle over your head as a bloke is, so why can't you hit her?
I know this is post is going to make me sound like some wife beating freak, but I'm not. I just hope I've got my opinion over well enough, in the short space of time I've had.
What if she's the chief bad guy?
What if you decide not to kill her, she presses the button to blow up london or whatever?
Just because she's pregnant, doesn't make her a good gal in the game.
This is the sort of thing that annoys me. It's like that stupid "you mustn't hit girls" Why not? Ok, if they haven't done anything, then you don't, just like you don't hit a bloke for no reason.
But say there was a big pub brawl or something, a woman is just as capable of smashing a bottle over your head as a bloke is, so why can't you hit her?
I know this is post is going to make me sound like some wife beating freak, but I'm not. I just hope I've got my opinion over well enough, in the short space of time I've had.
Two Words:
Chris
Morris
Chris
Morris
Wòókiee Møn§Ý€R wrote:
Not pointing
> any fingers, but this is exactly the sort of moral crusading that
> really pees me off - people that complain abuot things without
> knowing the full story.
Remember that advert where the skinhead
> runs after the old man, and you automatically assume he's going to
> mug him? When the camera pulls back, in actual fact, he's seen a
> pile of rubbish falling from a building scaffold and is trying to
> save the old guy.
You need to look at the bigger picture before
> you make a such a sweeping judgement, otherwise you will inevitably
> draw the wrong conclusion - a problem many of those who sit in moral
> judgement of the rest of us make.
Hey! I wasn't crusading! Just trying to make an interesting discussion!
Not pointing
> any fingers, but this is exactly the sort of moral crusading that
> really pees me off - people that complain abuot things without
> knowing the full story.
Remember that advert where the skinhead
> runs after the old man, and you automatically assume he's going to
> mug him? When the camera pulls back, in actual fact, he's seen a
> pile of rubbish falling from a building scaffold and is trying to
> save the old guy.
You need to look at the bigger picture before
> you make a such a sweeping judgement, otherwise you will inevitably
> draw the wrong conclusion - a problem many of those who sit in moral
> judgement of the rest of us make.
Hey! I wasn't crusading! Just trying to make an interesting discussion!
The Game wrote:
> But there is a MASSIEVE difference between Armed Man
> Killing Armed Man and Super-Snake-Guy killing COMPLETELY Innocent
> woman.
Whoa, slow down a minute!
The pregnant woman in MGS2 is a 'boss' character. It's not known by Snake at the time that she's pregnant, and she is also armed and returning fire. Morality isn't much of an issue in this aspect, as far as I'm concerned.
Unlikely though it may be, if I was in a similar situation in real life, I'd do the same - even if I did know she was pregnant.
Anyone who's played the demo will know that, after killing her, Snake is visibly regretful.
Not pointing any fingers, but this is exactly the sort of moral crusading that really pees me off - people that complain abuot things without knowing the full story.
Remember that advert where the skinhead runs after the old man, and you automatically assume he's going to mug him? When the camera pulls back, in actual fact, he's seen a pile of rubbish falling from a building scaffold and is trying to save the old guy.
You need to look at the bigger picture before you make a such a sweeping judgement, otherwise you will inevitably draw the wrong conclusion - a problem many of those who sit in moral judgement of the rest of us make.
> But there is a MASSIEVE difference between Armed Man
> Killing Armed Man and Super-Snake-Guy killing COMPLETELY Innocent
> woman.
Whoa, slow down a minute!
The pregnant woman in MGS2 is a 'boss' character. It's not known by Snake at the time that she's pregnant, and she is also armed and returning fire. Morality isn't much of an issue in this aspect, as far as I'm concerned.
Unlikely though it may be, if I was in a similar situation in real life, I'd do the same - even if I did know she was pregnant.
Anyone who's played the demo will know that, after killing her, Snake is visibly regretful.
Not pointing any fingers, but this is exactly the sort of moral crusading that really pees me off - people that complain abuot things without knowing the full story.
Remember that advert where the skinhead runs after the old man, and you automatically assume he's going to mug him? When the camera pulls back, in actual fact, he's seen a pile of rubbish falling from a building scaffold and is trying to save the old guy.
You need to look at the bigger picture before you make a such a sweeping judgement, otherwise you will inevitably draw the wrong conclusion - a problem many of those who sit in moral judgement of the rest of us make.
He may have just been watching Bambi, I mean that is just so scary! He walks off smug and sarcastic.
They say the eyes are the window to the soul... who does? Well... the pastors at my church... and being a christian I tend to believe what they say.
What goes in seems to stay in as a memory especially 'horrible' things.
I remember when I was about 7... I had a nightmare... Yoda had cut of my hand with a light-sabre and my hand was dangling by a few layers of skin... i'll never forget it because at the time I was so impressionable.
I suppose there weren't really parts in games that could effect me because of the crap graphics, but now... with games becoming more and more realistic and the likeness between the characters and real being almost immeasurable, games could have a much bigger effect on people today. Especially kids...
I would play a game where you had to shoot a pregnant woman, because as long as it isn't the main idea or you don't have to do it frequently you could avoid it and get someone else to do it... The thing is, one little aspect or section in a game can put off or attract a certain number of gamers. As sick as it sounds, there will be people who look out for the woman and get excited about shooting her.
Personally I don't agree with this sort of thing in a game. If I were Video Kojima I wouldn't have it in the game, and if it is in the final version the game will have a ton of bad publicity to it's name. It's not a good idea to have things in a game that will put people off....there is nothing like it in Zelda and that has sold millions. There is nothing like it in Mario and that has sold millions. Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior and Sonic follow the same track. You don't need it in a game and most people wouldn't want it in a game.
I wouldn't buy a game with it in, but I wouldn't avoid playing the game... i'd just skip or ask a friend to do that part... I sincerely hope it isn't in the final version.
As for games in general, they don't need to be gruesome... as shown by the list of games above. Good games don't need blood and gore... in fact bloody games don't seems to do nearly as well in general as nicer games... I find fun in Mario, Zelda, Sonic and Banjo-Kazooie and there is no real violence in them... I'm not saying violent games shouldn't stand beause a lot of older gamers know that 'it isn't real...' and that 'it's only a game...'...
But there is a MASSIEVE difference between Armed Man Killing Armed Man and Super-Snake-Guy killing COMPLETELY Innocent woman. I don't mind people playing games like Res-Evil or A.i.t.D. but I don't think people should play sick games... Anything like the pregnant woman thingy SHOULDN'T stand, screaming girls and tortured souls is a bad thing... man vs man can do just as much for the game as man vs defenceless woman / girl...
I know i've babbled a bit there.. (talking to Sheepy too much.... cheese)... but you get my opinion... right.
Basically, anything that could be taken as serious and seriously disgusting and immoral shouldn't be allowed.... there is a very thick line of what is and what isn't acceptable.
Game
What goes in seems to stay in as a memory especially 'horrible' things.
I remember when I was about 7... I had a nightmare... Yoda had cut of my hand with a light-sabre and my hand was dangling by a few layers of skin... i'll never forget it because at the time I was so impressionable.
I suppose there weren't really parts in games that could effect me because of the crap graphics, but now... with games becoming more and more realistic and the likeness between the characters and real being almost immeasurable, games could have a much bigger effect on people today. Especially kids...
I would play a game where you had to shoot a pregnant woman, because as long as it isn't the main idea or you don't have to do it frequently you could avoid it and get someone else to do it... The thing is, one little aspect or section in a game can put off or attract a certain number of gamers. As sick as it sounds, there will be people who look out for the woman and get excited about shooting her.
Personally I don't agree with this sort of thing in a game. If I were Video Kojima I wouldn't have it in the game, and if it is in the final version the game will have a ton of bad publicity to it's name. It's not a good idea to have things in a game that will put people off....there is nothing like it in Zelda and that has sold millions. There is nothing like it in Mario and that has sold millions. Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior and Sonic follow the same track. You don't need it in a game and most people wouldn't want it in a game.
I wouldn't buy a game with it in, but I wouldn't avoid playing the game... i'd just skip or ask a friend to do that part... I sincerely hope it isn't in the final version.
As for games in general, they don't need to be gruesome... as shown by the list of games above. Good games don't need blood and gore... in fact bloody games don't seems to do nearly as well in general as nicer games... I find fun in Mario, Zelda, Sonic and Banjo-Kazooie and there is no real violence in them... I'm not saying violent games shouldn't stand beause a lot of older gamers know that 'it isn't real...' and that 'it's only a game...'...
But there is a MASSIEVE difference between Armed Man Killing Armed Man and Super-Snake-Guy killing COMPLETELY Innocent woman. I don't mind people playing games like Res-Evil or A.i.t.D. but I don't think people should play sick games... Anything like the pregnant woman thingy SHOULDN'T stand, screaming girls and tortured souls is a bad thing... man vs man can do just as much for the game as man vs defenceless woman / girl...
I know i've babbled a bit there.. (talking to Sheepy too much.... cheese)... but you get my opinion... right.
Basically, anything that could be taken as serious and seriously disgusting and immoral shouldn't be allowed.... there is a very thick line of what is and what isn't acceptable.
Game
Yes, some crazy going ons here.
Time_Warp wrote:
>YOu're dead. Both of you!
Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't let HIM play any more violent games
:-D
Gotta go, dinner, back later.
>YOu're dead. Both of you!
Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't let HIM play any more violent games
:-D
Gotta go, dinner, back later.
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