The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
Piracy stinks. You buy or in anyway receive a copied game and you are a thief, exactly as if you'd walked into a SR Club shop and ran out with a game stuffed under your jumper. However, it is accepted as an okay thing to do by modern day Britain - why?
Games are over priced - rubbish. Sure, the actual cost of the CD and packaging you hold in your hand is a mere fraction of the £30 you shell out. However, you are footing the bill for months, sometimes years of development. Not only do talented programmers, designers etc need remuneration, but also the computers and software used to do this work is amazingly high priced. All this has to be paid for somehow, and, as you’d imagine, Dodgy Dave done the pub doesn’t send royalty cheques to Sony (or whoever financed the making of the game). I have the added knowledge, living in N. Ireland, that the money earned through pirated software, in the vast majority, goes to the terrorist organisations. In buying pirated software here you are, in effect, aiding needless destruction and murder (enjoy your game).
The vast majority of the pre-tax price of games represents IP. This is the rather general term that covers the Soft Co's ownership of the game’s code. You buy a licence from them to play their game when you hand over £30. This clearly isn't a physical licence you can hold or frame, but is the difference between a £5 game of the back of a truck at a car boot sale and a £30 one bought in the high street.
At the end of the day, you pay £5 for two hours at the movies (£2.50 an hour) or £30 for maybe 20 hours on FF7 - (£1.50 an hour). I'm totally aware that many people picked up FF7 cheaper and played it longer too! What it all comes down to is perceived value. If you don't think the game is worth £30 then don't buy it. Simple as that.
"Ahhh", but you say, "I'm allowed a back up". Well, for a start, who actually backs up their PlayStation games anyway? No one. If you’re going down the market and picking up copied games it isn't for back up, it is because you are too cheap to fork out the full price for your hours of enjoyment. Also, there’s the fact that the back up rule to total tosh. It applied when software was on the more volatile magnetic disks, where data could, and frequently was, lost and thus a back up was used. However, CDs are a very reliable medium (note: you're mishandling of the CDs doesn't count in their reliability in the eyes of the law) and thus back ups are unnecessary so the law does not provide for them. I don't think anyone could argue that cartridges are unreliable either...
Anyway, I could bore you with further legal ramblings but you won't be interested and its what I would call work, being a Law and Accountancy student. Way I see it, you can never complain about the death of a Soft Co if you bought pirated software as you aided the problem. You cannot bemoan the public's ignorance to the Dreamcast and its subsequent demise if you stole IP from Sega.
Now, to contradict myself (but I will explain) there are things I think you could be more justified in copying, most notably PC software. I don't mean Windows or Office, overpriced as they are, but things like Photoshop and Dreamweaver. Part of their high price is there as it is expected the licensees (ie the person who buys the legit copy) will use it in their workplace and thus earn money from the software. In something like Photoshop you are buying the right to sell on documents that have been treated with their filters, to use a very simple example. With this in mind I'll happily use "pirated" versions of their software, technically it is still breaking the law, but I can do it with a clear conscience as I know I’m just tinkering with a few snapshots of my Dad falling off a bike. The sight of their new cheaper, consumer friendly versions of Photoshop is testing it though - I think I'll have to pick one of those up sooner or later instead.
I really didn't mean to "go off on one" its just piracy annoys me. Back to what I created this posting to do, bring you a little news (after a long introduction).
Neo 4 will be ready for the PS2 at the start of September. First chip to independently allow users to pretty much play whatever back ups they want - be they PSX or PS2 - all without the need for swap disks or additional hardware, such as the Action Reply 2 carts used at the moment. However, don't expect to see your local dodgy market trader doing the mods in the back of his van. Whereas the PSX was remarkably easy to solder the required chips in place, the Neo 4 one needs 36 precision solders to be installed.
Anyway, don't do it kids. You'll probably knacker your PS2 trying to install it and do you really want to be a thief anyway?
Games are over priced - rubbish. Sure, the actual cost of the CD and packaging you hold in your hand is a mere fraction of the £30 you shell out. However, you are footing the bill for months, sometimes years of development. Not only do talented programmers, designers etc need remuneration, but also the computers and software used to do this work is amazingly high priced. All this has to be paid for somehow, and, as you’d imagine, Dodgy Dave done the pub doesn’t send royalty cheques to Sony (or whoever financed the making of the game). I have the added knowledge, living in N. Ireland, that the money earned through pirated software, in the vast majority, goes to the terrorist organisations. In buying pirated software here you are, in effect, aiding needless destruction and murder (enjoy your game).
The vast majority of the pre-tax price of games represents IP. This is the rather general term that covers the Soft Co's ownership of the game’s code. You buy a licence from them to play their game when you hand over £30. This clearly isn't a physical licence you can hold or frame, but is the difference between a £5 game of the back of a truck at a car boot sale and a £30 one bought in the high street.
At the end of the day, you pay £5 for two hours at the movies (£2.50 an hour) or £30 for maybe 20 hours on FF7 - (£1.50 an hour). I'm totally aware that many people picked up FF7 cheaper and played it longer too! What it all comes down to is perceived value. If you don't think the game is worth £30 then don't buy it. Simple as that.
"Ahhh", but you say, "I'm allowed a back up". Well, for a start, who actually backs up their PlayStation games anyway? No one. If you’re going down the market and picking up copied games it isn't for back up, it is because you are too cheap to fork out the full price for your hours of enjoyment. Also, there’s the fact that the back up rule to total tosh. It applied when software was on the more volatile magnetic disks, where data could, and frequently was, lost and thus a back up was used. However, CDs are a very reliable medium (note: you're mishandling of the CDs doesn't count in their reliability in the eyes of the law) and thus back ups are unnecessary so the law does not provide for them. I don't think anyone could argue that cartridges are unreliable either...
Anyway, I could bore you with further legal ramblings but you won't be interested and its what I would call work, being a Law and Accountancy student. Way I see it, you can never complain about the death of a Soft Co if you bought pirated software as you aided the problem. You cannot bemoan the public's ignorance to the Dreamcast and its subsequent demise if you stole IP from Sega.
Now, to contradict myself (but I will explain) there are things I think you could be more justified in copying, most notably PC software. I don't mean Windows or Office, overpriced as they are, but things like Photoshop and Dreamweaver. Part of their high price is there as it is expected the licensees (ie the person who buys the legit copy) will use it in their workplace and thus earn money from the software. In something like Photoshop you are buying the right to sell on documents that have been treated with their filters, to use a very simple example. With this in mind I'll happily use "pirated" versions of their software, technically it is still breaking the law, but I can do it with a clear conscience as I know I’m just tinkering with a few snapshots of my Dad falling off a bike. The sight of their new cheaper, consumer friendly versions of Photoshop is testing it though - I think I'll have to pick one of those up sooner or later instead.
I really didn't mean to "go off on one" its just piracy annoys me. Back to what I created this posting to do, bring you a little news (after a long introduction).
Neo 4 will be ready for the PS2 at the start of September. First chip to independently allow users to pretty much play whatever back ups they want - be they PSX or PS2 - all without the need for swap disks or additional hardware, such as the Action Reply 2 carts used at the moment. However, don't expect to see your local dodgy market trader doing the mods in the back of his van. Whereas the PSX was remarkably easy to solder the required chips in place, the Neo 4 one needs 36 precision solders to be installed.
Anyway, don't do it kids. You'll probably knacker your PS2 trying to install it and do you really want to be a thief anyway?
Page:
Pity you didn't back up that spell checker.
pb is correct i am obsessed with collecting, i have 43 games but half the time i only buy to increase my collection and rarely enjoy playing the last game that i bothered to enjoy in full was Conker! I won Banjo Tooie got through a few levels and left it!
I guess that I didn't really need to have pirate software. I was quite lucky to get freebies from shops (pre-release versions of games that companies would send out) when the PSX was relatively new.
Nowadays, of course, I just don't have the time for more than a few new games and end up playing the old ones. If yuo look at the way in which a pirate plays a game, they're not really interested in finishing it, just collecting games for the sake of it. They won't really care about the games as they didn't provide the money for the pleasure of playing them and it just becomes one game after another and then throw them on the pile.
I like to experience a game in as much depth as possible, even arcade games, and because of this, I would never have time for pirate games, even if I wanted to collect them (which I don't)
Nowadays, of course, I just don't have the time for more than a few new games and end up playing the old ones. If yuo look at the way in which a pirate plays a game, they're not really interested in finishing it, just collecting games for the sake of it. They won't really care about the games as they didn't provide the money for the pleasure of playing them and it just becomes one game after another and then throw them on the pile.
I like to experience a game in as much depth as possible, even arcade games, and because of this, I would never have time for pirate games, even if I wanted to collect them (which I don't)
Two things to say:
1. Piracy is wrong, and I hate it.
2. I never got my PSX chipped, and don't plan on getting my PS2 chipped.
1. Piracy is wrong, and I hate it.
2. I never got my PSX chipped, and don't plan on getting my PS2 chipped.
Piracy is wrong, handling pirated goods is wrong, playing someone else's backup on your console, guess what, is wrong. Even if you bought it, the simple act of playing a pirated game, is illegal.
Ways to stop it:
'Uncopyable media'. Not easy, would involve encoding the data on the disc so that it can only be read by a certain wavelength of laser, which could only be found in the console itself. Expensive, but not impossible.
'Destructive media'. Codemasters have tried numerous techniques, such as bringing out games that specifically target non-standard architecture in the console that they are intended for, and disable them. Currently they are working with Sony on a game disk that will simply not play in any modified PS2, whether or not that modification is internal or external. (BOTH are illegal, Playstationmods should have been shut down ages ago, but the legal wranglings continue I suspect).
'Law Enforcement'. Ongoing, enforcement agencies and organisations are pressing charges, but because of the overwhelming number of pirates out there, it has no discernable effect on the big guys, they just move somewhere else and churn out copies in their factories by the 1000.
'Education'. These threads help, but the gaming industry should take the initiative in their respective countries and set up a squad of educators to tour schools and drum it in to these kids that piracy is wrong, they could tack it on to the end of drugs-awareness or stranger-awareness talks around the age 7-10 group.
'The Public'. If you see a stall selling backups, either demand your original copy for the same price or call the police if they turn around and laugh at you. You should be despising these guys, not buying off them, they are the reason that jobs are lost, and also the reason that about 1600 quality titles just didn't appear last year in the States alone.
Ways to stop it:
'Uncopyable media'. Not easy, would involve encoding the data on the disc so that it can only be read by a certain wavelength of laser, which could only be found in the console itself. Expensive, but not impossible.
'Destructive media'. Codemasters have tried numerous techniques, such as bringing out games that specifically target non-standard architecture in the console that they are intended for, and disable them. Currently they are working with Sony on a game disk that will simply not play in any modified PS2, whether or not that modification is internal or external. (BOTH are illegal, Playstationmods should have been shut down ages ago, but the legal wranglings continue I suspect).
'Law Enforcement'. Ongoing, enforcement agencies and organisations are pressing charges, but because of the overwhelming number of pirates out there, it has no discernable effect on the big guys, they just move somewhere else and churn out copies in their factories by the 1000.
'Education'. These threads help, but the gaming industry should take the initiative in their respective countries and set up a squad of educators to tour schools and drum it in to these kids that piracy is wrong, they could tack it on to the end of drugs-awareness or stranger-awareness talks around the age 7-10 group.
'The Public'. If you see a stall selling backups, either demand your original copy for the same price or call the police if they turn around and laugh at you. You should be despising these guys, not buying off them, they are the reason that jobs are lost, and also the reason that about 1600 quality titles just didn't appear last year in the States alone.
What I'm most surprised about is that fact that it has taken so long and that Sony have ignorantly ignored an easy way to stave off piracy in the short term - use DVDs for everything. Now, I'm not sure of the situation now, but last time I checked blank DVDs cost more than pre-recorded ones. If pirates have to charge high prices to make it worth their while, it clearly ruins the whole point of piracy.
Sure, it would maybe up the short-term costs of making a game - but how much would it save in the long run? Even if it only staves off piracy for another year that could be worth a fortune.
However, piracy is an inflated problem. It was when you mentioned the Amiga games I remembered installing friend’s PC titles on top my PC. We used to organize how we bought games so that if there were two games we wanted he would get one and I'd get the other. We'd then install them on both computers so that, in effect, we both had the game. Again, I was about 12; I didn't really understand why this was wrong. The point I'm getting at, in a very roundabout way, is that I wouldn't have been able to pay the full price for the both games. No one really "lost" a sale as if I wasn't able get it off my friend I wouldn't have it at all.
It harks back to the perceived value thing. You may think that Game X is worth £5, but not £30. At £5 you'll buy it, at £30 you won't. Therefore you picking up a pirated copy of Game X doesn't actually affect the Soft Co's revenue, as you never would have bought it anyway. However, you are still breaking the law. The game has £30s worth of value in it - if you don't pay that you don't earn the right to own the game. I know people with collections of pirated software they've never played - they collect it like stamps or something. Its so they can say they have 300 PSX games, but, and this is quite literally, they've only played maybe 150 of those, and only about 50 have actually seen more than an hour in the PSX.
I’m not defending piracy; it is just a common thing people say in an attempt to defend their actions, and in my tired state this morning I sympathise with them a little.
What's my point… I'm still groping for one! I think what I'm trying to say is that while piracy is still clearly a problem and always wrong, the games industry is blowing it out of proportion. It easy for Sega to say that the Dreamcast's demise was done to piracy (they haven't, it was just something that sprang to mind), but harder for them to admit that their abysmal marketing played a huge factor. Piracy maybe used as a smoke screen to hide some other issues – for example stupidly high development and marketing costs.
Sure, it would maybe up the short-term costs of making a game - but how much would it save in the long run? Even if it only staves off piracy for another year that could be worth a fortune.
However, piracy is an inflated problem. It was when you mentioned the Amiga games I remembered installing friend’s PC titles on top my PC. We used to organize how we bought games so that if there were two games we wanted he would get one and I'd get the other. We'd then install them on both computers so that, in effect, we both had the game. Again, I was about 12; I didn't really understand why this was wrong. The point I'm getting at, in a very roundabout way, is that I wouldn't have been able to pay the full price for the both games. No one really "lost" a sale as if I wasn't able get it off my friend I wouldn't have it at all.
It harks back to the perceived value thing. You may think that Game X is worth £5, but not £30. At £5 you'll buy it, at £30 you won't. Therefore you picking up a pirated copy of Game X doesn't actually affect the Soft Co's revenue, as you never would have bought it anyway. However, you are still breaking the law. The game has £30s worth of value in it - if you don't pay that you don't earn the right to own the game. I know people with collections of pirated software they've never played - they collect it like stamps or something. Its so they can say they have 300 PSX games, but, and this is quite literally, they've only played maybe 150 of those, and only about 50 have actually seen more than an hour in the PSX.
I’m not defending piracy; it is just a common thing people say in an attempt to defend their actions, and in my tired state this morning I sympathise with them a little.
What's my point… I'm still groping for one! I think what I'm trying to say is that while piracy is still clearly a problem and always wrong, the games industry is blowing it out of proportion. It easy for Sega to say that the Dreamcast's demise was done to piracy (they haven't, it was just something that sprang to mind), but harder for them to admit that their abysmal marketing played a huge factor. Piracy maybe used as a smoke screen to hide some other issues – for example stupidly high development and marketing costs.
The old piracy debate, I agree with what you are saying piracy is wrong. It always has and always will. No matter what companies do to prevent piracy there will always be someone clever enough to find ways around it. It may take them a few months or years but they will find a way round it. Don't think that DVD's or nintendos optical disks will stop piracy because somebody will find a way. Piracy will only become a big problem if the way of doing it is cost effective though, if it costs too much to make a copy then they have to sell them for more which is pointlesss if they aren't a fair bit cheaper than the original.
The problem of piracy is also to do with society. Until the problem is recognised as being a problem and also being illegal then it will continue to go on and on. I live near to Glasgow, the Barrowlands market is a weekend market where some people go to sell pirate games. I know this because I used to get amiga games here. Before you judge me and say if piracy is wrong why did you buy amiga games here. My answer is this. I was young and knew nothing in the slightest about piracy. I thought this was perfectly legal, just some guy selling me a copy of his game for money. Looking back I can see why it is such a big problem. This is what killed the amiga!
Well at this market the guys sell PSX games for around £15, the problem is this. If the police catch them then they get nothing, a few guys with mobiles and catalouges of games. not enough to send them away for a long time. When the police make a raid they keep everything the find the more evidence they get the better, a catalouge and a few customers with games wont keep the criminals away long and when they get out they start it all up again as this is their way of life. This is how they make a living. What these guys do is a simple operation. When a customer asks for a game the guy phones someone in a flat up the street and a usually a little kid will bring it round. So no copying equipment or vast amounts of games are usually found when the poilice make a raid.
So the real problem is how do we stop people from selling and copying games and also people buying them. There are a few ways round this. We could protest for stricter laws so that the punishment if you are caught selling these is good enough to make them stop in the future. The main problem is with the people who copy and sell the games, if they were out of the equation then there wouldn't be any "dodgy dave's" to buy games from.
We also have to make piracy less cost effective, the reason people sell copies is that they can make alot of money out of it, this money sometimes going to feed drug addictions, support families. If we can find ways of making the whole copying of games expensive then maybe it will be reduced.
You say that the PS2's defences have been completely broken down, are you surprised? I think the same will happen with the x-box and possibly the gamecube. The problem is that the games industry has a very large market. It is expected to double in size in the next 5 years. There are bound to be alot of people interested in buying pirate copies. Piracy is a huge problem for all the major software companies, more and more seem to be lured into buying copies of games from £5 to £15 which is alot cheaper that the real thing. So why do they do it. Simple why pay £35 for something when you can get the same game without the box, manual and official disk for an extra £20. People don't care about the companies it effects. Soon we may see some small developers dying out unless the problem is addressed properly. Its about time people realised the true effects of piracy and something worthwhile is done to prevent it.
The problem of piracy is also to do with society. Until the problem is recognised as being a problem and also being illegal then it will continue to go on and on. I live near to Glasgow, the Barrowlands market is a weekend market where some people go to sell pirate games. I know this because I used to get amiga games here. Before you judge me and say if piracy is wrong why did you buy amiga games here. My answer is this. I was young and knew nothing in the slightest about piracy. I thought this was perfectly legal, just some guy selling me a copy of his game for money. Looking back I can see why it is such a big problem. This is what killed the amiga!
Well at this market the guys sell PSX games for around £15, the problem is this. If the police catch them then they get nothing, a few guys with mobiles and catalouges of games. not enough to send them away for a long time. When the police make a raid they keep everything the find the more evidence they get the better, a catalouge and a few customers with games wont keep the criminals away long and when they get out they start it all up again as this is their way of life. This is how they make a living. What these guys do is a simple operation. When a customer asks for a game the guy phones someone in a flat up the street and a usually a little kid will bring it round. So no copying equipment or vast amounts of games are usually found when the poilice make a raid.
So the real problem is how do we stop people from selling and copying games and also people buying them. There are a few ways round this. We could protest for stricter laws so that the punishment if you are caught selling these is good enough to make them stop in the future. The main problem is with the people who copy and sell the games, if they were out of the equation then there wouldn't be any "dodgy dave's" to buy games from.
We also have to make piracy less cost effective, the reason people sell copies is that they can make alot of money out of it, this money sometimes going to feed drug addictions, support families. If we can find ways of making the whole copying of games expensive then maybe it will be reduced.
You say that the PS2's defences have been completely broken down, are you surprised? I think the same will happen with the x-box and possibly the gamecube. The problem is that the games industry has a very large market. It is expected to double in size in the next 5 years. There are bound to be alot of people interested in buying pirate copies. Piracy is a huge problem for all the major software companies, more and more seem to be lured into buying copies of games from £5 to £15 which is alot cheaper that the real thing. So why do they do it. Simple why pay £35 for something when you can get the same game without the box, manual and official disk for an extra £20. People don't care about the companies it effects. Soon we may see some small developers dying out unless the problem is addressed properly. Its about time people realised the true effects of piracy and something worthwhile is done to prevent it.
Ö~ Res€vilfan ~Ö wrote:
> no,
> over on playstationmods.com there's an external chip for
> backups and imports with ONE wire to solder
Yeah, Neo Key, its made by the same people. The big fuss is that Neo 4 doesn't require an Action Replay cart, like the Neo Key. Its also the first chip that doesn't need you to swap disks i.e. the hackers have now totaly broken down the PS2's defences. Which was my point.
> no,
> over on playstationmods.com there's an external chip for
> backups and imports with ONE wire to solder
Yeah, Neo Key, its made by the same people. The big fuss is that Neo 4 doesn't require an Action Replay cart, like the Neo Key. Its also the first chip that doesn't need you to swap disks i.e. the hackers have now totaly broken down the PS2's defences. Which was my point.
I diddnt get my ps1 chipped either, and I wont be getting my ps2 chipped.
There was a readers letter in a mountain biking mag a while back saying "if oakley glasses cost 9p to make, how can they charge £120 for them?"
and the mag said
"You go into business making paper aeroplanes. You hire a team of pofessional designers for 6 months, travelling the world and seeing other designs, then spend more on advertising your plane. You would not make your investment back if you sold them at cost"
As soon as someone buys a plane from you, they would be able to recreate it at cost price, and sell it at the market for 5p. You would be out of business soon.
I dont want that to happen to the ps2. It happened to the amiga.
There was a readers letter in a mountain biking mag a while back saying "if oakley glasses cost 9p to make, how can they charge £120 for them?"
and the mag said
"You go into business making paper aeroplanes. You hire a team of pofessional designers for 6 months, travelling the world and seeing other designs, then spend more on advertising your plane. You would not make your investment back if you sold them at cost"
As soon as someone buys a plane from you, they would be able to recreate it at cost price, and sell it at the market for 5p. You would be out of business soon.
I dont want that to happen to the ps2. It happened to the amiga.
Page: