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I have just had this idea. Don't really know where it came from but i'll write it down. Don't know if it is worth the read but if you have time please read it. The other day I wrote a topic about piracy, In everyones view piracy seems to be a bad thing but there are others who disagree with everything that has been said before. They are the criminals who copy the games and sell them on to make themselves a pretty penny (usually quite alot of pretty pennys).
So why am I telling you this, don't really know. I myself used to copy games, before you judge me please read on.
It was a long time ago, I was about 12 maybe 13 and I owned an Amiga. At that stage everybody I knew that owned an Amiga copied games and gave them to friends. I didn't even think twice about doing it as I didn't know it was wrong. Sometime I used to go to a market in Glasgow on the weekends to get copies of the newest games at dirt-cheap prices. These guys made a living out of selling games and it wasn't until a few years later I realised just how bad piracy was and the real effects of piracy.
Piracy is a major problem but its a problem that will never go away. No matter how good the technology to stop it is there will always be a way round it. The main problem lies within society itself. Until the people who buy and sell them realise that its wrong it will never stop. So why am I going on about this, The other day I was walking through the street and a guy asked me if I wanted to buy a PS2 game. It obviously wasn't his and since you can't copy them (yet) how would he make his money, he steals then sells them for £10 less than the shops. I turned him down and walked away. I stopped and looked back and waited to see him approach a few more people before a few policeman shouted then chased him and arrested him for stealing.
All this made me think, are some people really that bad, the answer is yes. But is there a victim in all this? Ok so stealing and piracy is wrong but these large companies can afford the effects, if they couldn't then they would stop making games. Do you honestly think if piracy stopped and no longer happened that game prices would drop, I don't.
Im getting a bit side-tracked so I'll get back to the main point. People who copy games. Recently I went back to the market that I used to buy amiga games. I used to buy imports for my PSX (they weren't copies but I don't know if they were stolen or not) The same guys were now selling PSX games (copies) I decided to ask why they sold them.
He had no problems telling me, Here is roughly what he said.
Why should you pay £30 for something you can buy for a fiver. Or with PC software something that costs over £300 that I can sell for £15. This is how I make my money. People copy music onto tapes for friends, copy videos and dowload music and films from the web. What I do is no different other than the software companies make such a big issue over it. If all the money went to the people who made the game It would be fine but it dosn't. It gets split and alot goes to the people who sell it which is wrong. The only reason they make it a big issue is because they are greedy and want more money from people like you gamers. They don't care about you at all.
I wasn't sure if he was just trying to get me to buy games or if he truely ment what he was saying. But how much of it is actualy true. I don't think people understand the true issues of piracy enough. Its wrong plain and simple and more should be done to get this message across to the people, not spent trying to modify hardware to stop it. Also do the developers really care about us, as long as we buy the games they are happy. I'll stop now as I have probably bored you all. : )
Thanks for reading.
AliBoy
So why am I telling you this, don't really know. I myself used to copy games, before you judge me please read on.
It was a long time ago, I was about 12 maybe 13 and I owned an Amiga. At that stage everybody I knew that owned an Amiga copied games and gave them to friends. I didn't even think twice about doing it as I didn't know it was wrong. Sometime I used to go to a market in Glasgow on the weekends to get copies of the newest games at dirt-cheap prices. These guys made a living out of selling games and it wasn't until a few years later I realised just how bad piracy was and the real effects of piracy.
Piracy is a major problem but its a problem that will never go away. No matter how good the technology to stop it is there will always be a way round it. The main problem lies within society itself. Until the people who buy and sell them realise that its wrong it will never stop. So why am I going on about this, The other day I was walking through the street and a guy asked me if I wanted to buy a PS2 game. It obviously wasn't his and since you can't copy them (yet) how would he make his money, he steals then sells them for £10 less than the shops. I turned him down and walked away. I stopped and looked back and waited to see him approach a few more people before a few policeman shouted then chased him and arrested him for stealing.
All this made me think, are some people really that bad, the answer is yes. But is there a victim in all this? Ok so stealing and piracy is wrong but these large companies can afford the effects, if they couldn't then they would stop making games. Do you honestly think if piracy stopped and no longer happened that game prices would drop, I don't.
Im getting a bit side-tracked so I'll get back to the main point. People who copy games. Recently I went back to the market that I used to buy amiga games. I used to buy imports for my PSX (they weren't copies but I don't know if they were stolen or not) The same guys were now selling PSX games (copies) I decided to ask why they sold them.
He had no problems telling me, Here is roughly what he said.
Why should you pay £30 for something you can buy for a fiver. Or with PC software something that costs over £300 that I can sell for £15. This is how I make my money. People copy music onto tapes for friends, copy videos and dowload music and films from the web. What I do is no different other than the software companies make such a big issue over it. If all the money went to the people who made the game It would be fine but it dosn't. It gets split and alot goes to the people who sell it which is wrong. The only reason they make it a big issue is because they are greedy and want more money from people like you gamers. They don't care about you at all.
I wasn't sure if he was just trying to get me to buy games or if he truely ment what he was saying. But how much of it is actualy true. I don't think people understand the true issues of piracy enough. Its wrong plain and simple and more should be done to get this message across to the people, not spent trying to modify hardware to stop it. Also do the developers really care about us, as long as we buy the games they are happy. I'll stop now as I have probably bored you all. : )
Thanks for reading.
AliBoy
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b) indirectly putting the Amiga CD-32 out of production
I thank them for that one too ;-)
Did you work for Ravensoft?
If so, I can understand personal strong feelings. But isn't the industry in the strongest position ever?
I thank them for that one too ;-)
Did you work for Ravensoft?
If so, I can understand personal strong feelings. But isn't the industry in the strongest position ever?
Tellah wrote:
> Exchange the word 'profit' below for 'revenue'.
Do you think that
> the N64 collapsed because it's media wasn't copy-able??
Nintendo recently successfully sued an emulation production company for $7,000,000. That's just the one that was caught, there are hundreds of other N64 emulators out of the web.
And that the
> PS was so successful because even poorer working class could afford
> the games, both original and pirated?
Maybe Sony owe the pirates
> thanks for making the PS the biggest selling console ever, and
> giving them the actual 'unit count' with which they now dominate the
> market?
Sony don't make profit from selling their consoles, they make profit from the licensing of their software titles, the same as Nintendo, the same as Sega, the same as most other console manufacturer's.
I personally thank the pirates for:
a) indirectly putting Sega out of the hardware market
b) indirectly putting the Amiga CD-32 out of production
c) directly pushing up the cost of games worldwide
d) directly reducing the amount of titles available for gamers
e) directly putting SNK of America out of business
f) directly causing Ravensoft to lose 22 employees
g) on the larger scale, escalating the growth of illegal class A drugs, which in turn escalates addiction, sickness, crime rates etc.
h) on the larger scale again, helping to finance terrorism.
If you don't believe g) or h), there's a report on the forums on the effects of software piracy in third world countries, particularly Paraguay.
> Exchange the word 'profit' below for 'revenue'.
Do you think that
> the N64 collapsed because it's media wasn't copy-able??
Nintendo recently successfully sued an emulation production company for $7,000,000. That's just the one that was caught, there are hundreds of other N64 emulators out of the web.
And that the
> PS was so successful because even poorer working class could afford
> the games, both original and pirated?
Maybe Sony owe the pirates
> thanks for making the PS the biggest selling console ever, and
> giving them the actual 'unit count' with which they now dominate the
> market?
Sony don't make profit from selling their consoles, they make profit from the licensing of their software titles, the same as Nintendo, the same as Sega, the same as most other console manufacturer's.
I personally thank the pirates for:
a) indirectly putting Sega out of the hardware market
b) indirectly putting the Amiga CD-32 out of production
c) directly pushing up the cost of games worldwide
d) directly reducing the amount of titles available for gamers
e) directly putting SNK of America out of business
f) directly causing Ravensoft to lose 22 employees
g) on the larger scale, escalating the growth of illegal class A drugs, which in turn escalates addiction, sickness, crime rates etc.
h) on the larger scale again, helping to finance terrorism.
If you don't believe g) or h), there's a report on the forums on the effects of software piracy in third world countries, particularly Paraguay.
Isn't it 10,000 words to be a reg?
I remember your arguement FM that even the poorest of people can save up for games...
But surely you need to LOVE games to save up each week to afford a game??
Gaming isn't elite anymore, people who think games are 'just ok' will own a PS because the units are < £80. These people couldn't give a damn about the piracy laws, or if all of a sudden the games industry stopped producing good games. It doesn't bother them, they get cheap games.
But these people are still good for the games industry, why? Because they are new gamers, they are entering a market they were previously uninvolved with. Sony has made a tidy amount on them. They will buy a game or two...
The games industry is the biggest growth industry in the world i think, so something is going right.
Have I hit my damn regular word count yet!!!??
But surely you need to LOVE games to save up each week to afford a game??
Gaming isn't elite anymore, people who think games are 'just ok' will own a PS because the units are < £80. These people couldn't give a damn about the piracy laws, or if all of a sudden the games industry stopped producing good games. It doesn't bother them, they get cheap games.
But these people are still good for the games industry, why? Because they are new gamers, they are entering a market they were previously uninvolved with. Sony has made a tidy amount on them. They will buy a game or two...
The games industry is the biggest growth industry in the world i think, so something is going right.
Have I hit my damn regular word count yet!!!??
It's widely acknowledged that estimations (as that's all that they can be) are just that, estimations.
When calculating losses, developer, publishers, retailers etc. have to do very rough calculations. In the end though, if Nintendo send out a press release saying they, their developers and their publishers lost $750 million in 1998 through piracy, and then you take estimates on how much piracy cost others in 1998 and add them all together, it's kinda spooky how the figures all add up to the total amount for worldwide losses in 1998, so they must be 'approximately' correct.
Personally I'd allow 10% either side.
When calculating losses, developer, publishers, retailers etc. have to do very rough calculations. In the end though, if Nintendo send out a press release saying they, their developers and their publishers lost $750 million in 1998 through piracy, and then you take estimates on how much piracy cost others in 1998 and add them all together, it's kinda spooky how the figures all add up to the total amount for worldwide losses in 1998, so they must be 'approximately' correct.
Personally I'd allow 10% either side.
Exchange the word 'profit' below for 'revenue'.
Do you think that the N64 collapsed because it's media wasn't copy-able?? And that the PS was so successful because even poorer working class could afford the games, both original and pirated?
Maybe Sony owe the pirates thanks for making the PS the biggest selling console ever, and giving them the actual 'unit count' with which they now dominate the market?
Do you think that the N64 collapsed because it's media wasn't copy-able?? And that the PS was so successful because even poorer working class could afford the games, both original and pirated?
Maybe Sony owe the pirates thanks for making the PS the biggest selling console ever, and giving them the actual 'unit count' with which they now dominate the market?
I was referring to actual loss through pirating. The actual profit that the games/retail companies are not seeing because the game isn't being bought.
I think that the figures for an average pirate game owner would look something like this:
30 games of which: 25 pirate. 5 original.
The games comapnies would argue that this person has cost them 30 x £45 in profit i.e. £1200
This person in question would NOT have spent the £1200 on games- therefore it is not a true loss in profit. You multiply the £1200 by the millions of users, and you begin to get the rediculous figures that are quoted by the games companies e.g. U.S. video game and PC game companies lost more than $3.2 billion worldwide in '98.
It is my arguement that:
The pirate game owner mentioned above, had he not been able to aquire pirate copies wouldn't have bought the 30 games, but more like 3 of them. 3 x £40 = £120 loss to the games industry. Multiply this, and you would get a lot less than the $3.2Bn.
Still a lot, but a lot less. And this is also an average UK pirate games owner.
It's my belief that in poorer countries, where piracy is rife (and where the astronomical figures come from), that the average pirate game owner would buy 0 (no) games if he were unable to get pirate copies.... Meaning that the games industry actually loses nothing in profit on these people.
So how accurate are the figures given?? I'f what I've suggested is true, then they arn't at all accurate. Do they count each pirate copy on the market as a loss in profits? If so, that's rubbish.
If pirating didn't exist, would the games industry make the $3.2Bn they are currently 'losing' per year?
I think that the figures for an average pirate game owner would look something like this:
30 games of which: 25 pirate. 5 original.
The games comapnies would argue that this person has cost them 30 x £45 in profit i.e. £1200
This person in question would NOT have spent the £1200 on games- therefore it is not a true loss in profit. You multiply the £1200 by the millions of users, and you begin to get the rediculous figures that are quoted by the games companies e.g. U.S. video game and PC game companies lost more than $3.2 billion worldwide in '98.
It is my arguement that:
The pirate game owner mentioned above, had he not been able to aquire pirate copies wouldn't have bought the 30 games, but more like 3 of them. 3 x £40 = £120 loss to the games industry. Multiply this, and you would get a lot less than the $3.2Bn.
Still a lot, but a lot less. And this is also an average UK pirate games owner.
It's my belief that in poorer countries, where piracy is rife (and where the astronomical figures come from), that the average pirate game owner would buy 0 (no) games if he were unable to get pirate copies.... Meaning that the games industry actually loses nothing in profit on these people.
So how accurate are the figures given?? I'f what I've suggested is true, then they arn't at all accurate. Do they count each pirate copy on the market as a loss in profits? If so, that's rubbish.
If pirating didn't exist, would the games industry make the $3.2Bn they are currently 'losing' per year?
If you catch them young enough then they listen. My niece (8 yrs old) currently has drug awareness and smoking awareness lectures at her school.
Boy do I get some stick now when I light up in her presence.
Yes, it would make a difference. The excuse about "£30 is too expensive I can't afford that so I'll just buy a copy of it" is the most common one given for people buying illegal copies of games. Simply because they are too ignorant of the damage they do to the games industry. Simply because they are too ignorant to realise that what they are doing is theft, pure and simple.
Ignorance can be overcome with education.
Boy do I get some stick now when I light up in her presence.
Yes, it would make a difference. The excuse about "£30 is too expensive I can't afford that so I'll just buy a copy of it" is the most common one given for people buying illegal copies of games. Simply because they are too ignorant of the damage they do to the games industry. Simply because they are too ignorant to realise that what they are doing is theft, pure and simple.
Ignorance can be overcome with education.
Thing is, if you went to schools, would it make a difference? I'm not just talking about you, if anyone did it, would the kids listen?
They'd probably be, like "Oh, don't worry about him. Would you rather spend £5 on a PSX game, or £30"
Ant that would persuade most kids, especially as kids normally have less money and want to get things as cheap as possible.
What I think they need to do is make it so copied games are either:
A) REALLY difficult to do. Or
B) REALLY expensive, so there's hardly any difference in price between acopied game and an original.
I know that A has been tried, and hackers get round it. I guess hackers will always get round things, but if you can drop it to an acceptable level (quite what that would be I really don't know) then it might be worthwhile.
The only way of making copies really expensive, as far as I know, is to release games on cartridges. But we've seen witht the N64, it doesn't work. Hopfully, with the different sized DVD's for the 'Cube, they will have less piracy and cheaper games.
I think that it may be a good move for console manufacturers to use wierdly shaped discs, square ones? This would possibly make the copy of them so difficult and expensive that it may not be possible. OR use a new type of DVD, which is only used for games, or maybe films as well, then arrange it so that no company is allowed to make a writer for the new style of disc. This would then cut out a lot of piracy.
All in all, I think it's a difficult problem to solve, but I hope they do soon...
They'd probably be, like "Oh, don't worry about him. Would you rather spend £5 on a PSX game, or £30"
Ant that would persuade most kids, especially as kids normally have less money and want to get things as cheap as possible.
What I think they need to do is make it so copied games are either:
A) REALLY difficult to do. Or
B) REALLY expensive, so there's hardly any difference in price between acopied game and an original.
I know that A has been tried, and hackers get round it. I guess hackers will always get round things, but if you can drop it to an acceptable level (quite what that would be I really don't know) then it might be worthwhile.
The only way of making copies really expensive, as far as I know, is to release games on cartridges. But we've seen witht the N64, it doesn't work. Hopfully, with the different sized DVD's for the 'Cube, they will have less piracy and cheaper games.
I think that it may be a good move for console manufacturers to use wierdly shaped discs, square ones? This would possibly make the copy of them so difficult and expensive that it may not be possible. OR use a new type of DVD, which is only used for games, or maybe films as well, then arrange it so that no company is allowed to make a writer for the new style of disc. This would then cut out a lot of piracy.
All in all, I think it's a difficult problem to solve, but I hope they do soon...
Correct again, which is why I defend copyright laws so vehemently on FOG Prime and Chat. The only way we can stop the 'one-off' pirates is by educating them.
This is as good a place as any to do it. If I had the means to go around local schools with a 30 minute talk armed with all the facts and figures I'd do that as well.
This is as good a place as any to do it. If I had the means to go around local schools with a 30 minute talk armed with all the facts and figures I'd do that as well.
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