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I'm surprised to see there's not loads of topics about this already (sorry if there already is one - couldnt find one) but I think it's a pretty important issue.
So America, growing colder and more distant that ever, have let two of their citizens be executed. Why? Because America have a few Iraqi women held in their custody and are refusing to hand them over. Now I can see why they wouldn't want to hand over these women, they're potentially terrorists (after all they probably wear head-scarves!) but they didn't try and strike some sort of alternate deal, they simple said "so be it". I haven't seen any rescue attempts being made for these men, nor any Police-Camera-Action style stinger operations where they smuggle look-a-like women out in order to try and reclaim their lost citizens - oh no - Bush has done absolutely nothing.
Now this isn't an Anti-American rant, I beleive that a lot of American people are as discomforted by this matter as I am, and want something to be done. However there is a simple question of "what else could they do?"
Can Bush stand to let America be seen was weak to the rest of the world by conceding to a lesser-developed nation? No chance. This means the only viable alternatives are foreful tactics, such as sending special forces into the country to track down the hostages and reclaim them or some clever plot to delude the Iraqis into handing over the prisoners - and lets face it, clever plots are hardly the USA's forte.
For those of you who haven't seen or heard about these beheading videos, they are particularly gory. Not simply one swipe with a katana or guiloteen, but instead a series of butcherous hacks with a saw-like blade and a foot to the top of the spine as the head is wretched off. The guy is still screaming as it is done and seemingly alive for about 2/3 of the time. Imagine the fear in those poor men's hearts, and imagine the terror inside the English Guy's head now as he waits for his pending death, unless somehow America decide to save one of our citizens but not two of their own. Isn't the American constitution all about protecting civil liberties and human rights? Doesn't being beheaded contravene a human right? I beleive so.
So why aren't they doing anything? To be honest it baffles me. Surely conceding in this case and losing a bit of respect to save three innocent men is more respectable that sending three men to a gruesome death in order to stick to their guns on the issue. In my case I see America as colder, distant and more uncaring than before - and that's saying something.
Who's betting Kerry will use this in his election campaign to downsize Bush?
So America, growing colder and more distant that ever, have let two of their citizens be executed. Why? Because America have a few Iraqi women held in their custody and are refusing to hand them over. Now I can see why they wouldn't want to hand over these women, they're potentially terrorists (after all they probably wear head-scarves!) but they didn't try and strike some sort of alternate deal, they simple said "so be it". I haven't seen any rescue attempts being made for these men, nor any Police-Camera-Action style stinger operations where they smuggle look-a-like women out in order to try and reclaim their lost citizens - oh no - Bush has done absolutely nothing.
Now this isn't an Anti-American rant, I beleive that a lot of American people are as discomforted by this matter as I am, and want something to be done. However there is a simple question of "what else could they do?"
Can Bush stand to let America be seen was weak to the rest of the world by conceding to a lesser-developed nation? No chance. This means the only viable alternatives are foreful tactics, such as sending special forces into the country to track down the hostages and reclaim them or some clever plot to delude the Iraqis into handing over the prisoners - and lets face it, clever plots are hardly the USA's forte.
For those of you who haven't seen or heard about these beheading videos, they are particularly gory. Not simply one swipe with a katana or guiloteen, but instead a series of butcherous hacks with a saw-like blade and a foot to the top of the spine as the head is wretched off. The guy is still screaming as it is done and seemingly alive for about 2/3 of the time. Imagine the fear in those poor men's hearts, and imagine the terror inside the English Guy's head now as he waits for his pending death, unless somehow America decide to save one of our citizens but not two of their own. Isn't the American constitution all about protecting civil liberties and human rights? Doesn't being beheaded contravene a human right? I beleive so.
So why aren't they doing anything? To be honest it baffles me. Surely conceding in this case and losing a bit of respect to save three innocent men is more respectable that sending three men to a gruesome death in order to stick to their guns on the issue. In my case I see America as colder, distant and more uncaring than before - and that's saying something.
Who's betting Kerry will use this in his election campaign to downsize Bush?
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As for the rest of this topic... A few things make me despair. First off the media (or much of it) has minimal coverage of these hostage situations, but as soon as a Brit gets captured, it's front-page news. Just as others have said, car-bombings and suchlike aren't worth reporting, no Brits died in that, so who cares? It's this kind of thing that gives people such big national egos so they start thinking only British people matter and everyone else is out to kill them or steal their jobs or money... (possibly a bit of exaggeration...)
Another thing... All these people out in Iraq to fix the infrastructure, they know the risks. They know that when they take a job with a fat pay cheque at the end of it that Iraq is a warzone (no matter what politicians may say about the war being over...) it's kind of obvious that you could end up getting killed. Kidnapping and beheading is obviously sick, but how many have already occurred? My advice would be that if you don't want to die, don't go into a warzone...
How about we stop giving British / US / Western firms the job of rebuilding Iraq and give some Iraqis the chance to rebuild their country and create some jobs over there at the same time? I'm sure that would help more than getting a bunch of westerners over, putting their lives at risk, and taking money away from a completely unstable nation.
Another thing... All these people out in Iraq to fix the infrastructure, they know the risks. They know that when they take a job with a fat pay cheque at the end of it that Iraq is a warzone (no matter what politicians may say about the war being over...) it's kind of obvious that you could end up getting killed. Kidnapping and beheading is obviously sick, but how many have already occurred? My advice would be that if you don't want to die, don't go into a warzone...
How about we stop giving British / US / Western firms the job of rebuilding Iraq and give some Iraqis the chance to rebuild their country and create some jobs over there at the same time? I'm sure that would help more than getting a bunch of westerners over, putting their lives at risk, and taking money away from a completely unstable nation.
phi11ip wrote:
> Maybe the best idea is to have a small 'locator' chip or something
> implanted into your back or something. They must have the tracking
> technology to do that?
No, we should recruit our own suicide bombers to go over and get kidnapped. After being kidnapped and taken to the secret compound our man twists the end of his pinky and those terrorists wont be bothering us anymore.
> Maybe the best idea is to have a small 'locator' chip or something
> implanted into your back or something. They must have the tracking
> technology to do that?
No, we should recruit our own suicide bombers to go over and get kidnapped. After being kidnapped and taken to the secret compound our man twists the end of his pinky and those terrorists wont be bothering us anymore.
AUXRADAR wrote:
> I cant speak with any authority over whether special forces are
> already trying their best to reach these people for that chaps sake i
> really hope they do. But i would just like to show what some members
> of the british public think in their naivity. I quote.
>
> loki
> "everything flows"
> Staff Regular stats
> Today at 9.48AM AUXRADAR wrote:
> yep. we do have time off sometimes from putting our lives at risk
> its
> true.
>
> I love the way that people in the forces keep pointing out that
> they're 'putting their lives at risk'. What do you want, another dumb
> little medal? Like we owe them any favours for the job they chose to
> do.
>
> You know what, people who are prepared to kill people for money do
> not rate very highly in my opinion.
>
> end quote..
Jeez, you already started an entire topic just for this, don't drag it into every topic... Just makes you appear like you're on some ego-trip.
> I cant speak with any authority over whether special forces are
> already trying their best to reach these people for that chaps sake i
> really hope they do. But i would just like to show what some members
> of the british public think in their naivity. I quote.
>
> loki
> "everything flows"
> Staff Regular stats
> Today at 9.48AM AUXRADAR wrote:
> yep. we do have time off sometimes from putting our lives at risk
> its
> true.
>
> I love the way that people in the forces keep pointing out that
> they're 'putting their lives at risk'. What do you want, another dumb
> little medal? Like we owe them any favours for the job they chose to
> do.
>
> You know what, people who are prepared to kill people for money do
> not rate very highly in my opinion.
>
> end quote..
Jeez, you already started an entire topic just for this, don't drag it into every topic... Just makes you appear like you're on some ego-trip.
Ashley wrote:
> > Personally i only think we should report allied casualties, and that
> only as a courtesy and thanks for the sacrifice they have given.
Hah! I would be bothered, but you've just disappeared off my esteem-radar.
At the very bottom end.
> > Personally i only think we should report allied casualties, and that
> only as a courtesy and thanks for the sacrifice they have given.
Hah! I would be bothered, but you've just disappeared off my esteem-radar.
At the very bottom end.
I have different views all over this situation.
The first being I think the executers are the lowest of the low. Fair enough I don't know how I'd act in their situation but killing people in a brutal way like beheading is a disgrace. Especially considering they're just people trying to earn a living. PLUS... two Italien women who worked for a children's charity are now feared dead.
Second I'm sick of the amount of media coverage this is. All those tabloids love a good story like this don;t they, so they can have one there giant font spazzy titles like 'SAVE ME' with a picture of the guy.
And third the damn politicians who don't give a damn even though the whole situation is THEIR FAULT.
But then you can't negotiate because then such an incident may happen more frequent as they see it as a way to get what they want.
The first being I think the executers are the lowest of the low. Fair enough I don't know how I'd act in their situation but killing people in a brutal way like beheading is a disgrace. Especially considering they're just people trying to earn a living. PLUS... two Italien women who worked for a children's charity are now feared dead.
Second I'm sick of the amount of media coverage this is. All those tabloids love a good story like this don;t they, so they can have one there giant font spazzy titles like 'SAVE ME' with a picture of the guy.
And third the damn politicians who don't give a damn even though the whole situation is THEIR FAULT.
But then you can't negotiate because then such an incident may happen more frequent as they see it as a way to get what they want.
Right first things first.
the beheadings and stuff are vile and wrong, however there is nothing that can be done to stop this, this isn't one of those cheesy operation delta force movies and by deciding it is so, we can immediately locate the bad guys.
The government is taking the rights stance you can't give into them other wise they'll do it more and more people will die. These women are fundemantily evil death traps. they build biological weapons, and if released where are they going? to join some terrorists, oooooo thats a good idea, lets just let them go and join them so they can help buid some nasty shitt and kill even more people.
Personally i disagree with goatboy on the issue of the car bomb reporting, i actually think car bombings, suicide bombings and all in israel and the middle east is over reported.
Quite frankly i don't give a toss, don't get me wrong in most situations i am ppretty compassionate, but its stupid to report all this,
A) nobody honestly cares if some bus gets blown up in israel, people just pretend to be mortally offended by it as it is the right and moral thing society says we should do.
B) its their own stupid fault most of the time
C) and most importantly, reporting it makes it considerably worse. If we didn't lamely report in some hugely exaggerated terms, full of false compassion every little car bomb or shooting and the likes all these events would be slashed in no time. Why do these people do this? why does the IRA kill 2 people when it makes buggger all difference to their cause? because it spreads fear and gives them publicity, by all this stup[id reporting we just help them complete there job.
Personally i only think we should report allied casualties, and that only as a courtesy and thanks for the sacrifice they have given.
the beheadings and stuff are vile and wrong, however there is nothing that can be done to stop this, this isn't one of those cheesy operation delta force movies and by deciding it is so, we can immediately locate the bad guys.
The government is taking the rights stance you can't give into them other wise they'll do it more and more people will die. These women are fundemantily evil death traps. they build biological weapons, and if released where are they going? to join some terrorists, oooooo thats a good idea, lets just let them go and join them so they can help buid some nasty shitt and kill even more people.
Personally i disagree with goatboy on the issue of the car bomb reporting, i actually think car bombings, suicide bombings and all in israel and the middle east is over reported.
Quite frankly i don't give a toss, don't get me wrong in most situations i am ppretty compassionate, but its stupid to report all this,
A) nobody honestly cares if some bus gets blown up in israel, people just pretend to be mortally offended by it as it is the right and moral thing society says we should do.
B) its their own stupid fault most of the time
C) and most importantly, reporting it makes it considerably worse. If we didn't lamely report in some hugely exaggerated terms, full of false compassion every little car bomb or shooting and the likes all these events would be slashed in no time. Why do these people do this? why does the IRA kill 2 people when it makes buggger all difference to their cause? because it spreads fear and gives them publicity, by all this stup[id reporting we just help them complete there job.
Personally i only think we should report allied casualties, and that only as a courtesy and thanks for the sacrifice they have given.
Unfortunately its all coming down to money nowadays its one heck of a windfall in the cash department to work out there at the moment.
It's pretty obvious why they don't want to release the women.
Eventually the 'kidnapping people' will realise that no matter how many people they kill, nothing will be done so the benefits of doing so will go.
However if they give in and release the women, although the hostages will be released this time, the kidnappers will have the upper hand, they can just do it again this time with a higher price.
Anyone who goes to work in Iraq at the moment is an idiot, so many people have been kidnapped yet people still go out there.
Maybe the best idea is to have a small 'locator' chip or something implanted into your back or something. They must have the tracking technology to do that?
Eventually the 'kidnapping people' will realise that no matter how many people they kill, nothing will be done so the benefits of doing so will go.
However if they give in and release the women, although the hostages will be released this time, the kidnappers will have the upper hand, they can just do it again this time with a higher price.
Anyone who goes to work in Iraq at the moment is an idiot, so many people have been kidnapped yet people still go out there.
Maybe the best idea is to have a small 'locator' chip or something implanted into your back or something. They must have the tracking technology to do that?
Cyclone wrote:
>
> I saw someone, possibly Blair, the other day saying; 'It's not about
> whether the war was justified anymore - it's about stopping these
> insurgents, and on that note, it's impossible to be not sure where
> you stand'.
It's his way of saying, "Forget about that rubbish and focus on the now." But we all know that 'now' wouldn't be how it is if it weren't for America and the UK's use of force.
However, he is right. We shouldn't ignore the current situation because the past was wrong.
>
> Actually, on a side note, the funniest (if there is anything funny
> about it at all) thing is that these extremist idiots are demandig
> the release of women....and yet these are Islamic extremists
And why are they demanding these pro-saddam supporters get released?
Simple.
They know how to make explosives do more than just go bang. They want to recruit them.
>
> I saw someone, possibly Blair, the other day saying; 'It's not about
> whether the war was justified anymore - it's about stopping these
> insurgents, and on that note, it's impossible to be not sure where
> you stand'.
It's his way of saying, "Forget about that rubbish and focus on the now." But we all know that 'now' wouldn't be how it is if it weren't for America and the UK's use of force.
However, he is right. We shouldn't ignore the current situation because the past was wrong.
>
> Actually, on a side note, the funniest (if there is anything funny
> about it at all) thing is that these extremist idiots are demandig
> the release of women....and yet these are Islamic extremists
And why are they demanding these pro-saddam supporters get released?
Simple.
They know how to make explosives do more than just go bang. They want to recruit them.
media is the terrorists controllable forum, Its a disheartening thing to become famous because a loved one faces terrible attrocities. heart goes out to all the families and every single innocent person out there.
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