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There's no point in denying it: so far the PS2 is a big pile of cack. Regardless of how much better it will or won't be when a handful of much awaited games arrive, at the moment almost everyone is disappointed with it.
Some blame the lack of first class (or even good) software for it. Some blame the inundation of sequels, past, present and (seemingly) future. Both of these things often go hand in hand with each other but why have they happened in the first place?
Is the PS2 not enough of a leap forward to allow anything more than graphically tarted up sequels and spin-offs? The answer is no - and I don't think it has anything to do with the machine itself.
The original PlayStation wasn't the most powerful console of the currently expiring generation. Nor did it have the best games. It did have by far the best marketing and, as much as it shouldn't, that counts for a great deal. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah everyone has posted a comment like that but bear with me and I do get more original.
I think the PS2 is in trouble because of two things. Firstly, there is no in-house software to set a standard by. When the N64 was in development and everyone was still beavering away on their games for it behind closed doors, Nintendo unveiled Super Mario 64. The game blew people (particularly other developers) away so much that many games already well into production at that time underwent serious changes to try and compete with the quality of and ideas in this truly next generation title.
When it comes to Sony, they have always generally made rubbish games, so there is no home-grown standard to set to other people making games for their console.
The other point is something that the PS2 has which I don't recall any other console ever having: a joypad lifted straigh from it's predecessor. Forget the analogue buttons which nobody seems to care about anymore and it's just a black PSOne pad. In each evolution of it's pads, Nintendo (and to a less extent, Sega) has come up with often quite dramatically different designs in an attempt to offer devolopers new ways for people to interact with their games in the hope that the games themselves can also evolve to a new level. Look at the GameCube pad and how few conventions it adheres to.
In keeping with the same joypad design Sony isn't allowing the PS2 games to become anything more than tarted up versions of something which could just as easily be done on the PsOne - which is probably partly why there are still so many games in development for the ageing machine.
Lack of standard-setting, home-grown software and a re-used joypad - that's where I think they've gone wrong. Anyone agree?
Some blame the lack of first class (or even good) software for it. Some blame the inundation of sequels, past, present and (seemingly) future. Both of these things often go hand in hand with each other but why have they happened in the first place?
Is the PS2 not enough of a leap forward to allow anything more than graphically tarted up sequels and spin-offs? The answer is no - and I don't think it has anything to do with the machine itself.
The original PlayStation wasn't the most powerful console of the currently expiring generation. Nor did it have the best games. It did have by far the best marketing and, as much as it shouldn't, that counts for a great deal. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah everyone has posted a comment like that but bear with me and I do get more original.
I think the PS2 is in trouble because of two things. Firstly, there is no in-house software to set a standard by. When the N64 was in development and everyone was still beavering away on their games for it behind closed doors, Nintendo unveiled Super Mario 64. The game blew people (particularly other developers) away so much that many games already well into production at that time underwent serious changes to try and compete with the quality of and ideas in this truly next generation title.
When it comes to Sony, they have always generally made rubbish games, so there is no home-grown standard to set to other people making games for their console.
The other point is something that the PS2 has which I don't recall any other console ever having: a joypad lifted straigh from it's predecessor. Forget the analogue buttons which nobody seems to care about anymore and it's just a black PSOne pad. In each evolution of it's pads, Nintendo (and to a less extent, Sega) has come up with often quite dramatically different designs in an attempt to offer devolopers new ways for people to interact with their games in the hope that the games themselves can also evolve to a new level. Look at the GameCube pad and how few conventions it adheres to.
In keeping with the same joypad design Sony isn't allowing the PS2 games to become anything more than tarted up versions of something which could just as easily be done on the PsOne - which is probably partly why there are still so many games in development for the ageing machine.
Lack of standard-setting, home-grown software and a re-used joypad - that's where I think they've gone wrong. Anyone agree?
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ssxpro wrote:
> We are both half right there. You made two points.
1) The
> in-house developement. This has been discussed many times, but I`m
> not about to go and find it.
It probably has, but it was on my mind at the time.
2) THe controllers. I think this may
> have been discussed, but slighty differently, so I suppose this
> counts as a new point, but its still just your opinion, and there is
> no way you`ll convince me of the controllers failure, or even put
> the slightest doubt about it in my mind.
It's not that the controller isn't good enough - I once posted a topic in which I said the PS analogue controller was probably the best one ever made. There is nothing wrong with the controller other than the fact there is nothing there to make it even more right. The point I was making was that Sony made the most mininal effort possible to try and improve it, and that's not good enough for helping to improve the games.
The kettle analogy was quite a good one so I'll borrow it (if you don't mind) to say that an even better kettle would be one which adds a timer saying how long is left to boil. It's not about rearranging what's already there so much as adding new stuff to it like dedicated camera sticks, in built VMU screens and so on. Even the abysmal Jaguar pad had a go with the idea of games coming with templates to fit over a telephone style keypad showing what button did what. It was a nice idea executed with laughable incompetance but at least they tried.
As for your attempt to direct our
> attention to the words "so far", it may be true that you
> said that initially, but you changed from past tense to future as
> you went through. We also argued about future titles.
Damn, you've got me there. Serves me right for rushing a reply. How about this then.
Many people are pinning their hopes on a handful of new titles. Alright, so they may be great, but the Dreamcast has about as many to look forward to and it's much further down the road to retirement. At this stage in a consoles existance it should be showing more signs of life than it is.
I don't think I'll post any more in this thread because we're never going to agree and we'll end up beating the longest thread record in trying. Truce?
> We are both half right there. You made two points.
1) The
> in-house developement. This has been discussed many times, but I`m
> not about to go and find it.
It probably has, but it was on my mind at the time.
2) THe controllers. I think this may
> have been discussed, but slighty differently, so I suppose this
> counts as a new point, but its still just your opinion, and there is
> no way you`ll convince me of the controllers failure, or even put
> the slightest doubt about it in my mind.
It's not that the controller isn't good enough - I once posted a topic in which I said the PS analogue controller was probably the best one ever made. There is nothing wrong with the controller other than the fact there is nothing there to make it even more right. The point I was making was that Sony made the most mininal effort possible to try and improve it, and that's not good enough for helping to improve the games.
The kettle analogy was quite a good one so I'll borrow it (if you don't mind) to say that an even better kettle would be one which adds a timer saying how long is left to boil. It's not about rearranging what's already there so much as adding new stuff to it like dedicated camera sticks, in built VMU screens and so on. Even the abysmal Jaguar pad had a go with the idea of games coming with templates to fit over a telephone style keypad showing what button did what. It was a nice idea executed with laughable incompetance but at least they tried.
As for your attempt to direct our
> attention to the words "so far", it may be true that you
> said that initially, but you changed from past tense to future as
> you went through. We also argued about future titles.
Damn, you've got me there. Serves me right for rushing a reply. How about this then.
Many people are pinning their hopes on a handful of new titles. Alright, so they may be great, but the Dreamcast has about as many to look forward to and it's much further down the road to retirement. At this stage in a consoles existance it should be showing more signs of life than it is.
I don't think I'll post any more in this thread because we're never going to agree and we'll end up beating the longest thread record in trying. Truce?
The Sega Mastersystem and Saturn controllers were pretty much the same, except the saturn had x,y,z buttons above the original a,b,c buttons, otherwise it was the same.
Sony had a lot of marketing on it's console, it was gard to do anything without seeing something to do with it, but it worked, and although Sega and nintendo had made names for themselves over the ten years they had before Sony, they still got blown away, and the Playstation was an excellent console when it first came out, but was shadowed by the N64 which was almost twice the size in power. It's all down to the individual, the paopled that like the playstation, buy the playstation, people that like Nintendo buy Nintendo products, and the same goes for people with Sega and Microsoft hardware (including PCs) they all have their own personalities and are'nt alike, which gives the competition.
The fact is at the moment the best console is the PS2, although the DC is still trying, they were out of the race a couple of months after they started. Now the Gamecube has been delayed, so Sony have got an easy run until the X-Box arrives, but the Playstation has already sold a record amount of units so I don't think they're worried.
Sony had a lot of marketing on it's console, it was gard to do anything without seeing something to do with it, but it worked, and although Sega and nintendo had made names for themselves over the ten years they had before Sony, they still got blown away, and the Playstation was an excellent console when it first came out, but was shadowed by the N64 which was almost twice the size in power. It's all down to the individual, the paopled that like the playstation, buy the playstation, people that like Nintendo buy Nintendo products, and the same goes for people with Sega and Microsoft hardware (including PCs) they all have their own personalities and are'nt alike, which gives the competition.
The fact is at the moment the best console is the PS2, although the DC is still trying, they were out of the race a couple of months after they started. Now the Gamecube has been delayed, so Sony have got an easy run until the X-Box arrives, but the Playstation has already sold a record amount of units so I don't think they're worried.
Seems like a good policy.
I have to say that I prefer Perfect Dark to most of my PSone games. Apart from stuff like Final Fantasy 7/8/9 Gran Turismo 2 and Metal Gear Solid.
I have to say that I prefer Perfect Dark to most of my PSone games. Apart from stuff like Final Fantasy 7/8/9 Gran Turismo 2 and Metal Gear Solid.
Zeldapro wrote:
I am
> a big Nintendo fan and would chose the big N over anything but I
> don't think the PS2 is pants, its quite good actually, and I had the
> choice of getting one but I said I'll stick with my N64 and wait for
> GC!!
Sorry Zeldapro, I didn't mean to say everyone who's loyalties were else were thought the PS2 was pants. I meant that those slagging off the PS2 were only doing so because there loyalties were elsewere! or something?
It doesn't matter anyway!
I am
> a big Nintendo fan and would chose the big N over anything but I
> don't think the PS2 is pants, its quite good actually, and I had the
> choice of getting one but I said I'll stick with my N64 and wait for
> GC!!
Sorry Zeldapro, I didn't mean to say everyone who's loyalties were else were thought the PS2 was pants. I meant that those slagging off the PS2 were only doing so because there loyalties were elsewere! or something?
It doesn't matter anyway!
We are both half right there. You made two points.
1) The in-house developement. This has been discussed many times, but I`m not about to go and find it.
2) THe controllers. I think this may have been discussed, but slighty differently, so I suppose this counts as a new point, but its still just your opinion, and there is no way you`ll convince me of the controllers failure, or even put the slightest doubt about it in my mind.
You were like a salesmen showing me kettles, saying that due to the fact that the "boil" button and "number of cups setting" button were in different places that it would be far better than existing kettles. There are no new extra buttons, its simply a way of trying to make it look different when the developer is worried nobody will buy it because it looks the same. Sony weren`t worried about sales as they knew they`d be successful, so they decided to stick with a design that works.
Feel free to try and explain to me why the controller is not good enough for next gen games. It has the buttons, it has a successful design, and now all but two of the buttons are pressure sensitive.
As for your attempt to direct our attention to the words "so far", it may be true that you said that initially, but you changed from past tense to future as you went through. We also argued about future titles.
1) The in-house developement. This has been discussed many times, but I`m not about to go and find it.
2) THe controllers. I think this may have been discussed, but slighty differently, so I suppose this counts as a new point, but its still just your opinion, and there is no way you`ll convince me of the controllers failure, or even put the slightest doubt about it in my mind.
You were like a salesmen showing me kettles, saying that due to the fact that the "boil" button and "number of cups setting" button were in different places that it would be far better than existing kettles. There are no new extra buttons, its simply a way of trying to make it look different when the developer is worried nobody will buy it because it looks the same. Sony weren`t worried about sales as they knew they`d be successful, so they decided to stick with a design that works.
Feel free to try and explain to me why the controller is not good enough for next gen games. It has the buttons, it has a successful design, and now all but two of the buttons are pressure sensitive.
As for your attempt to direct our attention to the words "so far", it may be true that you said that initially, but you changed from past tense to future as you went through. We also argued about future titles.
Ant wrote:
The PS2 a big
> pile of cack?? I expected better of you Kipper.
Expected better of me? DOes that mean you like my posts (excluding this one)?
People seems to be generally reacting as if I have forever condemned the PS2 when my words were that SO FAR it is a big pile of cack - I never said it wouldn't improve as time goes on, but then, so will the competition. All people have said in defense is how good it's getting or at least going to get (based on a handful of much anticipated titles and Dreamcast ports. As far as Resient Evil:Code Veronica goes I feel the need to smugly point out that Capcom announced a while back they are having difficulty making the PS2 version look as good as the DC one.
I know ripping into the PS2 is common and forms the basis of every other topic but my post was giving my opinion on why the problems arose in the first place, rather than just follow the normal 'the PS2 games are all naff so I wont but one and neither should you' routine.
If someone can find the same two points posted earlier on this forum which I must have missed then pop them to the top and I will back down and give the credit to the original poster but at the moment I stand firm by my opinions.
The PS2 a big
> pile of cack?? I expected better of you Kipper.
Expected better of me? DOes that mean you like my posts (excluding this one)?
People seems to be generally reacting as if I have forever condemned the PS2 when my words were that SO FAR it is a big pile of cack - I never said it wouldn't improve as time goes on, but then, so will the competition. All people have said in defense is how good it's getting or at least going to get (based on a handful of much anticipated titles and Dreamcast ports. As far as Resient Evil:Code Veronica goes I feel the need to smugly point out that Capcom announced a while back they are having difficulty making the PS2 version look as good as the DC one.
I know ripping into the PS2 is common and forms the basis of every other topic but my post was giving my opinion on why the problems arose in the first place, rather than just follow the normal 'the PS2 games are all naff so I wont but one and neither should you' routine.
If someone can find the same two points posted earlier on this forum which I must have missed then pop them to the top and I will back down and give the credit to the original poster but at the moment I stand firm by my opinions.
I am the Tarrant wrote:
> Again I apologise for sounding like Sniper (no offense Sniper but I
> felt you deseved a mention) and I do realise that the first reply to
> this post (courtesy of one ssxpro) suggests acknowledgement of the
> problem with this post.
But......
You're not saying anything
> new!!!!!!
We've all been over this debate thousands of times and
> it still comes down to the fact that most PS2 owners are happy with
> ther purchase, YES there were problems at first, but not now. And
> everyone who's loyalties lie with a different manufacturer thinks
> that the PS2 is pants!
To them I say 'fair enough don't waste
> your money them, BUT let me enjoy my PS2 in peace!!!!'
I don't
> know why I bother.....
post what you like actually! afterall I
> CHOSE to read this!
I am a big Nintendo fan and would chose the big N over anything but I don't think the PS2 is pants, its quite good actually, and I had the choice of getting one but I said I'll stick with my N64 and wait for GC!!
> Again I apologise for sounding like Sniper (no offense Sniper but I
> felt you deseved a mention) and I do realise that the first reply to
> this post (courtesy of one ssxpro) suggests acknowledgement of the
> problem with this post.
But......
You're not saying anything
> new!!!!!!
We've all been over this debate thousands of times and
> it still comes down to the fact that most PS2 owners are happy with
> ther purchase, YES there were problems at first, but not now. And
> everyone who's loyalties lie with a different manufacturer thinks
> that the PS2 is pants!
To them I say 'fair enough don't waste
> your money them, BUT let me enjoy my PS2 in peace!!!!'
I don't
> know why I bother.....
post what you like actually! afterall I
> CHOSE to read this!
I am a big Nintendo fan and would chose the big N over anything but I don't think the PS2 is pants, its quite good actually, and I had the choice of getting one but I said I'll stick with my N64 and wait for GC!!
Again I apologise for sounding like Sniper (no offense Sniper but I felt you deseved a mention) and I do realise that the first reply to this post (courtesy of one ssxpro) suggests acknowledgement of the problem with this post.
But......
You're not saying anything new!!!!!!
We've all been over this debate thousands of times and it still comes down to the fact that most PS2 owners are happy with ther purchase, YES there were problems at first, but not now. And everyone who's loyalties lie with a different manufacturer thinks that the PS2 is pants!
To them I say 'fair enough don't waste your money them, BUT let me enjoy my PS2 in peace!!!!'
I don't know why I bother.....
post what you like actually! afterall I CHOSE to read this!
But......
You're not saying anything new!!!!!!
We've all been over this debate thousands of times and it still comes down to the fact that most PS2 owners are happy with ther purchase, YES there were problems at first, but not now. And everyone who's loyalties lie with a different manufacturer thinks that the PS2 is pants!
To them I say 'fair enough don't waste your money them, BUT let me enjoy my PS2 in peace!!!!'
I don't know why I bother.....
post what you like actually! afterall I CHOSE to read this!
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