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"BNP: You can't fight fire with fire on this one"

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Fri 24/01/03 at 14:05
Regular
Posts: 787
Have you seen anything in the media about that most Northern of traditions, the Race Riot followed by the election of a small minded thug to represent the people? Currently it seems as if one can barely move through a dull, lifeless, post-industrial northern town without setting off a 3 day conflagration involving people of every colour and creed. In Oldham, Burnley, and Bradford there has been a truly frightening wave of violence that reflects poorly on the British people and the dream of a multicultural society. I have already said pretty much everything that I want to say on the subject of racism in an earlier post, and I have nothing more that would add to or deviate from that. What does fascinate me to a large extent is the ideologies of those who are actively encouraging the violence. I refer not only to the National Front/British National Party/ Combat 18/ (insert any other generic name for racist thugs who deserve rusty nails dragged down their eyeballs), but to those who oppose them. Whilst this would also encompass all manner of minority pressure groups, I'm going to steer clear of commenting on them. Not out of any desire to avoid controversy, but because (for now) I know very little about their organisation and motivations and as such it would not be right for me to include them here. The organisation that I shall mention is one that I am familiar with if for no other reason than I was once a member; The Anti Nazi League.

For simplicities sake, let's narrow it down to 2 opposing groups; BNP and ANL. Whilst this precludes me from addressing all of the complexities involved in this issue, it makes it easier for me to type and frankly I'd do many things for an easy life. Both of these organisations have strong ideologies driving them forward. In the case of the BNP they originate almost entirely with the writings and "work" of Adolf Hitler. There are a few other influences as well, but as these were generally either influences on Hitler (in the case of Nietzche) or influenced by him (Jean-Marie Le Pen, David Irving etc.) you'll forgive me for putting these to one side.

The ANL also have their basis in Nazi Germany, albeit indirectly. There is a quote by a man named Pastor Niemoeller from that era that they have adopted as their slogan and their mantra;

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, for I am not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out, for I am not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out, for I am not a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

Which is pretty powerful stuff in my opinion, and was certainly instrumental in my joining the ANL. Their basic credo is to oppose the BNP, to be their antithesis and their nemesis for the benefit of the greater good. If the BNP are for it, you can be reasonably certain that the ANL are against it.

Before sallying forth to do battle with both of these organisations, I'd rather like to add a few side points about ideologies in general. I personally have met people who have and continue to have a strong influence on my life. However, the biggest influence on my life is Bill Hicks. A lot of his material provides the basis for my own personal ideology; in effect I live a substantial portion of my life according to the words of another man. The members of both the BNP and ANL are in effect living a substantial portion of their lives according to the words of another man.

The ANL have it easier in that respect for Niemoller's words are few, and it is always easier to know what one is opposed to rather than what one believes in. But as for the BNP...they willingly say and (if they get the chance) do the most stupidly barbarous things based on the words of a half-Jewish artist from Austria who had one testicle and little sanity. Not even well understood either if one comes down to it. They delight in spouting bile and hatred about well, I can't post the word here but it begins with P, ends in aki, and anyone using it is clearly identifyable as a hate spewing suckwit. Aside from the obvious point that a sure way to nark an Indian off is to call a colloquial insult for a Pakistani, this is lumping together pretty much all the people of South Asia and the subcontinent. So far, so racist. But Hitler (on one of his many whimsies designed to prove the pre-eminence of the Aryans and to show their descent from a mythic race of super-men from Atlantis. Yes, really.) had declared that the people of Tibet, Nepal, and Kashmir (that I know of; their may be more) were Aryan people! He basically said that they were equal to the Germans in their racial purity (and I know that all notions of purity are utter toss, but there you go...). You'd at least hope that they'd go to the trouble of finding out just what the man actually said before committing acts of violence is his name, but it would appear not. Perhaps if the words of Adolf Hitler could be put into Topsy and Tim style books they might get it...

Anyway, what influence have these 2 organisations had on Britain's recent overflow of racial tension? Well to put it in a nutshell, if the BNP are the bullet in the head of racial harmony in the aforementioned 3 towns then the ANL have acted as the gunpowder. It is my belief that the riots (especially those that occurred in Bradford) would have been much less severe, perhaps even avoided altogether were it not for the ANL. Now this is not to say that the ANL turned up at all 3 towns with the intent of causing violence (although it would be naive to say that none of them did; the ANL has always been a loose coalition and so can include all sorts of elements other than peace loving anti fascists), but where they appeared, the violence followed. In Bradford the initial trouble centred on the impromptu ANL demonstration. The BNP thugs gathered to abuse them and a large gang of Asian youths (who were ostensibly there in support of the ANL) surged forward to attack them. Battle duly commenced.

Okay then; aren't the ANL simply fulfilling their purpose? They will stand up to the BNP come what may because of the words of Niemoeller, isn't that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Certainly I don't blame the ANL for actually speaking out against the BNP; better that than meekly accepting their presence. Rather than looking at what happened with the ANL's presence there though, lets have a hypothetical look at what *should* have happened if they weren't...

Well, there are all of the BNP thugs all gathered together and...oh, look at that. The police have formed a cordon around them and are pummeling merry hell out of anyone who tries to get out or in (a sort of even-handed beating you might say). The people who want to get on with their day are doing so without interruption and the people who simply want a fight with the BNP are getting pepper sprayed and arrested. The BNP can go no-where and those who try to get out...are getting pepper sprayed and arrested! At the end of the day the BNP are peacefully dispersed and a police presence remains all night.

Now then; that was an ideal world scenario. Due to the various different police forces not setting their houses in order, I'm not sure that the Asian community has sufficient trust in them to be as even handed as I'd described. Some may find the above description semi-fascist in itself. I would answer by saying that extreme times (and extreme organisations) call for extreme measures. Though I dislike it as much as the next man, a powerful police presence can sometimes be the best solution to a problem like this.

But thanks in part to the (mainly justified unfortunately) mistrust of the police from minority communities, the police do not have the mandate to do this. Instead, the ANL continue to provide a focal point for the violence, either knowingly or otherwise. I find myself applauding their intentions but (as by now you may have gathered) resenting the fact that they are still necessary. Is there really still such little trust and so much hate because of skin colour? Is this actually the 21st century or was there some kind of error when Julius Caesar re-did the calendar and this is in fact the 11th century? Either way, I repeat my earlier exhortation to sort the whole horrendous mess out and get on with the important business of evolving as members of the human race.
Fri 24/01/03 at 18:23
Regular
"Gamertag Star Fury"
Posts: 2,710
Whilst I admire Light's idealistic solution, on this topic I have to say that it's realism, and not idealism, that's going to bring about any progress in real life.

When you've got the BNP, and it's members, and it's ardent supporters, then its unlikely that anyone can disuade them from their ideology, which like any group's ideology is simply a method to gain power by appealing to a certain group. The government's failures on preventing illegal asylum seekers gaining entry to the country, on crime, e.t.c , alongside a totally crap management of the media, has given the BNP an easy platform for it's messages.

The ANL is a result of people who cannot understand why a western democracy lets an entity like the BNP exist. What's happened, in my view, is that in the UK and Europe we're not seperating democracy from allowing people to do whatever the hell they want. There is a difference. Lo behold anyone who suggests a group actually shouldn't be doing what it wants....

Take the case of the Mosque in Finsbury. Those who held last years virtual celebration of 9/11 there may have felt smug in doing so, protected by the country's laws, but they are giving the BNP and similar groups even more ammunition. Even if you ignore that, it was suspected pre 9/11 that this, and other msoques were being misused. Had anyone got the political will to raid them ? Nope. Amidst the fear of being branded racist authorities have forgotten a major thing, those who break the law are, first and foremost, criminals. Not muslims, christians, black, white, brown, whatever, but criminals or terrorists. They need to stop plaing so PC and go after those who break the law. Same goes for asylum seekers, stop whining on about the cost and numbers and tell people about why they come here, the regimes and conditions they flee from. Okay, so some guy who goes in the back of a container truck for days on end across Europe could be an economic migrant, but for christ's sake he's risked everything to get here ! Do those who oppose letting asylum seekers into the country really think we are that poor a country ?

I think that whilst certian groups are allowed to spread their hatred filled messages then this situation can only get worse.

Incidentally, the mosque that was raided earlier this week, I'll bet money that not all those police officers were police officers... ;) They're going to be playing hunt the bug for a long time in that place :)

~~Belldandy~~
Fri 24/01/03 at 17:24
Regular
Posts: 8,220
On a bit of a tanget,

BNP. Clearly pretty anti-democratic, the rejection of equality for one..
Yet permitted by democracy of course.

So as they gain power, is democracy destroyed, as it allows itself to be brushed aside for another way, or does it always operate beneath any form of government, in the potential for the masses to change their minds and select another way, though possibly equally undemocratic in its ideologies?

I guess in a way you can break it down to three levels:

1. What ultimately can happen
The hunting ground of strict libertarians, everyone can have a pop at doing what they want.

2. Method of selection of government
The structure for government born out of what has happened in level 1. Maybe it'll be a traditional western democracy of some sort with elections et al, maybe it'll be the way a dictator takes power

3. Practical government
What eventually comes out as government, wielding power.

So while the BNP may be holding more power on level 3, so long as we ultimately have democratic process on level 2, however undemocratic a level 3 government is, there will always be democracy.

Then again, can democracy have the right to try to prevent government changing its structure, or would that mean it'd cease to be a democracy?
Maybe there are only 2 levels - what can be, and what is.
So how do levels 2 and 3 work if they're actually 2.1 and 2.2?

This requires more thought...
Fri 24/01/03 at 14:05
Regular
"Wanking Mong"
Posts: 4,884
Have you seen anything in the media about that most Northern of traditions, the Race Riot followed by the election of a small minded thug to represent the people? Currently it seems as if one can barely move through a dull, lifeless, post-industrial northern town without setting off a 3 day conflagration involving people of every colour and creed. In Oldham, Burnley, and Bradford there has been a truly frightening wave of violence that reflects poorly on the British people and the dream of a multicultural society. I have already said pretty much everything that I want to say on the subject of racism in an earlier post, and I have nothing more that would add to or deviate from that. What does fascinate me to a large extent is the ideologies of those who are actively encouraging the violence. I refer not only to the National Front/British National Party/ Combat 18/ (insert any other generic name for racist thugs who deserve rusty nails dragged down their eyeballs), but to those who oppose them. Whilst this would also encompass all manner of minority pressure groups, I'm going to steer clear of commenting on them. Not out of any desire to avoid controversy, but because (for now) I know very little about their organisation and motivations and as such it would not be right for me to include them here. The organisation that I shall mention is one that I am familiar with if for no other reason than I was once a member; The Anti Nazi League.

For simplicities sake, let's narrow it down to 2 opposing groups; BNP and ANL. Whilst this precludes me from addressing all of the complexities involved in this issue, it makes it easier for me to type and frankly I'd do many things for an easy life. Both of these organisations have strong ideologies driving them forward. In the case of the BNP they originate almost entirely with the writings and "work" of Adolf Hitler. There are a few other influences as well, but as these were generally either influences on Hitler (in the case of Nietzche) or influenced by him (Jean-Marie Le Pen, David Irving etc.) you'll forgive me for putting these to one side.

The ANL also have their basis in Nazi Germany, albeit indirectly. There is a quote by a man named Pastor Niemoeller from that era that they have adopted as their slogan and their mantra;

"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out, for I am not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out, for I am not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out, for I am not a trade unionist. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."

Which is pretty powerful stuff in my opinion, and was certainly instrumental in my joining the ANL. Their basic credo is to oppose the BNP, to be their antithesis and their nemesis for the benefit of the greater good. If the BNP are for it, you can be reasonably certain that the ANL are against it.

Before sallying forth to do battle with both of these organisations, I'd rather like to add a few side points about ideologies in general. I personally have met people who have and continue to have a strong influence on my life. However, the biggest influence on my life is Bill Hicks. A lot of his material provides the basis for my own personal ideology; in effect I live a substantial portion of my life according to the words of another man. The members of both the BNP and ANL are in effect living a substantial portion of their lives according to the words of another man.

The ANL have it easier in that respect for Niemoller's words are few, and it is always easier to know what one is opposed to rather than what one believes in. But as for the BNP...they willingly say and (if they get the chance) do the most stupidly barbarous things based on the words of a half-Jewish artist from Austria who had one testicle and little sanity. Not even well understood either if one comes down to it. They delight in spouting bile and hatred about well, I can't post the word here but it begins with P, ends in aki, and anyone using it is clearly identifyable as a hate spewing suckwit. Aside from the obvious point that a sure way to nark an Indian off is to call a colloquial insult for a Pakistani, this is lumping together pretty much all the people of South Asia and the subcontinent. So far, so racist. But Hitler (on one of his many whimsies designed to prove the pre-eminence of the Aryans and to show their descent from a mythic race of super-men from Atlantis. Yes, really.) had declared that the people of Tibet, Nepal, and Kashmir (that I know of; their may be more) were Aryan people! He basically said that they were equal to the Germans in their racial purity (and I know that all notions of purity are utter toss, but there you go...). You'd at least hope that they'd go to the trouble of finding out just what the man actually said before committing acts of violence is his name, but it would appear not. Perhaps if the words of Adolf Hitler could be put into Topsy and Tim style books they might get it...

Anyway, what influence have these 2 organisations had on Britain's recent overflow of racial tension? Well to put it in a nutshell, if the BNP are the bullet in the head of racial harmony in the aforementioned 3 towns then the ANL have acted as the gunpowder. It is my belief that the riots (especially those that occurred in Bradford) would have been much less severe, perhaps even avoided altogether were it not for the ANL. Now this is not to say that the ANL turned up at all 3 towns with the intent of causing violence (although it would be naive to say that none of them did; the ANL has always been a loose coalition and so can include all sorts of elements other than peace loving anti fascists), but where they appeared, the violence followed. In Bradford the initial trouble centred on the impromptu ANL demonstration. The BNP thugs gathered to abuse them and a large gang of Asian youths (who were ostensibly there in support of the ANL) surged forward to attack them. Battle duly commenced.

Okay then; aren't the ANL simply fulfilling their purpose? They will stand up to the BNP come what may because of the words of Niemoeller, isn't that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Certainly I don't blame the ANL for actually speaking out against the BNP; better that than meekly accepting their presence. Rather than looking at what happened with the ANL's presence there though, lets have a hypothetical look at what *should* have happened if they weren't...

Well, there are all of the BNP thugs all gathered together and...oh, look at that. The police have formed a cordon around them and are pummeling merry hell out of anyone who tries to get out or in (a sort of even-handed beating you might say). The people who want to get on with their day are doing so without interruption and the people who simply want a fight with the BNP are getting pepper sprayed and arrested. The BNP can go no-where and those who try to get out...are getting pepper sprayed and arrested! At the end of the day the BNP are peacefully dispersed and a police presence remains all night.

Now then; that was an ideal world scenario. Due to the various different police forces not setting their houses in order, I'm not sure that the Asian community has sufficient trust in them to be as even handed as I'd described. Some may find the above description semi-fascist in itself. I would answer by saying that extreme times (and extreme organisations) call for extreme measures. Though I dislike it as much as the next man, a powerful police presence can sometimes be the best solution to a problem like this.

But thanks in part to the (mainly justified unfortunately) mistrust of the police from minority communities, the police do not have the mandate to do this. Instead, the ANL continue to provide a focal point for the violence, either knowingly or otherwise. I find myself applauding their intentions but (as by now you may have gathered) resenting the fact that they are still necessary. Is there really still such little trust and so much hate because of skin colour? Is this actually the 21st century or was there some kind of error when Julius Caesar re-did the calendar and this is in fact the 11th century? Either way, I repeat my earlier exhortation to sort the whole horrendous mess out and get on with the important business of evolving as members of the human race.

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