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"Ooooh! Look at that new game! It looks great, and the gameplay is mean to be excellent."
Really? So what do you do?
"Well, you’re a young hero who has to save a princess from an evil tyrant."
Marvellous! A developer spends millions of pounds on its latest genre-defining masterpiece (complete with a new graphics engine, realistic AI and the greatest level of interaction seen in a game before) and the best storyline they could come up with is "save the princess from the evil tyrant". Well that’s just great!
In some types of game, such clichéd plots are acceptable: kids games, deliberately corny games and licensed games are expected to have such plots. But when you have games like Metal Gear Solid 2 trying to make itself out to be a competitor to blockbuster films, you know the makers have lost the plot... literally.
The fact is that MGS2, and many other games, have the plotline of B-Rate movies. If they were films critics would heckle them. Don’t believe me? How’s this for a round up for the MGS2 plot:
"The cool as a cucumber character, Raiden, is on a mission to save the president who has been kidnapped along with the launch codes for America’s nuclear arsenal. It’s a race against time. But as the story progresses, things are not as they seem! In fact, a secret undercover organisation has been running the country for years, and the president is working with them. They have developed a weapon of mass-destruction that only you can stop! Even your friends must not be trusted! Etc...."
Now, as I think you’ll agree, the makers of MGS2 really were being a bit presumptuous to liken the game to a film. The fact is the matter is that almost every game that tries to be cinematic fails in one key area- the plot.
The mistake is not due to poor scriptwriting either- it’s due to the ethos of game design. Why should games- an interactive branching medium- try to emulate the plots of films- linear preset sequences of events- anyway? The whole point of games is that you are the one in charge- you should drive the story, and not the other way around. Preset plots and stories simply aren’t adequate for gaming anymore- the plot must be adaptable to your actions- something that film script writers need not worry about.
The problem in the industry is clear: after consoles equalled the specs of arcade games, developers turned from developing games that emulate arcades to games that emulate films. The focus has misplaced.
So, if there are any budding Miyamoto’s out there please don’t fall into the trap. Games are not films, nor shall they ever be. So don’t try to make them something they’re not!
Sonic
Really? So what do you do?
"Well, you’re a young hero who has to save a princess from an evil tyrant."
Marvellous! A developer spends millions of pounds on its latest genre-defining masterpiece (complete with a new graphics engine, realistic AI and the greatest level of interaction seen in a game before) and the best storyline they could come up with is "save the princess from the evil tyrant". Well that’s just great!
In some types of game, such clichéd plots are acceptable: kids games, deliberately corny games and licensed games are expected to have such plots. But when you have games like Metal Gear Solid 2 trying to make itself out to be a competitor to blockbuster films, you know the makers have lost the plot... literally.
The fact is that MGS2, and many other games, have the plotline of B-Rate movies. If they were films critics would heckle them. Don’t believe me? How’s this for a round up for the MGS2 plot:
"The cool as a cucumber character, Raiden, is on a mission to save the president who has been kidnapped along with the launch codes for America’s nuclear arsenal. It’s a race against time. But as the story progresses, things are not as they seem! In fact, a secret undercover organisation has been running the country for years, and the president is working with them. They have developed a weapon of mass-destruction that only you can stop! Even your friends must not be trusted! Etc...."
Now, as I think you’ll agree, the makers of MGS2 really were being a bit presumptuous to liken the game to a film. The fact is the matter is that almost every game that tries to be cinematic fails in one key area- the plot.
The mistake is not due to poor scriptwriting either- it’s due to the ethos of game design. Why should games- an interactive branching medium- try to emulate the plots of films- linear preset sequences of events- anyway? The whole point of games is that you are the one in charge- you should drive the story, and not the other way around. Preset plots and stories simply aren’t adequate for gaming anymore- the plot must be adaptable to your actions- something that film script writers need not worry about.
The problem in the industry is clear: after consoles equalled the specs of arcade games, developers turned from developing games that emulate arcades to games that emulate films. The focus has misplaced.
So, if there are any budding Miyamoto’s out there please don’t fall into the trap. Games are not films, nor shall they ever be. So don’t try to make them something they’re not!
Sonic
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Yeah, I think the plot in no. 8 was poor. It's not that you can't handle the plot because it's too complex, but when it gets to that level you just reflect on it and think it has become ridiculous!
That's why I liked Paper Mario's plot. It wasn't really the plot itself, but the fact that it was a breath of fresh air in not taking itself seriosuly, and it felt to me pretty tongue in cheek.
That's why I liked Paper Mario's plot. It wasn't really the plot itself, but the fact that it was a breath of fresh air in not taking itself seriosuly, and it felt to me pretty tongue in cheek.
The biggest problem in the FF series, from my point of view, is the plots. Not only are they stupidly complex, but they're done so seriously. Square even employ psycologists to decide when to have big changes in the plot (like characters dying), to determine how to get the most emotional response from you.
It doesn't work!
Sonic
It doesn't work!
Sonic
Oh, I was also thinking, the Mario and Zelda plotlines of 'save the princess' have become somewhat of a tradition in these series... almost to the extent of having the plot become tongue in cheek. I certainly felt there was a degree of this in Paper Mario, where the feel was that you have to save the Mushroom Kingdom and the princess, and defeat Bowser 'again'. It kind of felt like an inside joke, like that 'here we go again' feel.
I think this is good, I mean series like Final Fantasy in no. 8 it just seemed to take itself so seriously, and it came out worse for it.
I think this is good, I mean series like Final Fantasy in no. 8 it just seemed to take itself so seriously, and it came out worse for it.
I think that some games could work with the film esque plotline, however, it's not entirely necessary.
Plot CAN be important though... when playing Final Fantasy 7 I wasn't playing to further my stats or whatever, it was to fight the Shinra corporation, and then to save the planet... A strong plot can make you want to play a game because you want the enemies to get what's coming to them and (like in most films) you find yourself kind of rooting on, not the 'good guy' but (most of the time anyway...) the main character... there's a word for it... the main character, the person everything revolves around... but I can't remember it right now... Anyway, you find yourself kind of rooting on this person, and when this happens in a game, it drives you to carry the game out to completion. To guide the character through everything.
But while this plotline can and will drive you to play, gameplay still remains paramount. If a game is good enough in gameplay terms, the player wants to carry on gaming anyway. In the Zelda series I don't think you are made (I wasn't anyway...) to care much for Link, but I played through both Zelda games on N64 and some on other systems because it was a great game. I wasn't thinking 'ooh, only a few more dungeons till I find the princess' I was thinking, 'I wonder what cool item will be in the next dungeon' or 'I wonder what huge boss will be next'.
But the plotline I have found to be one of the best is that of the original Baldurs Gate. I love that game! But it's plot allowed you to be good or evil, and left a hell of a lot of mystery the first time round. And while, in the end you do end up doing the 'save the realm' thing, you don't actually know you will be doing this at the start, and indeed till very near the end. And throughout the plot has a lot of referance to your character (which is like FF7... 'save the world' is there, but the plot also incorporates a kind of sub plot which involves your main character which is kind of intertwined with the 'save the world' part...) and this helps it feel less like it is simply 'save the world' (again).
Anyway, not sure if this is off the point, but it was about plotlines anyhow, so I think it must have been relevant somehow :D
Plot CAN be important though... when playing Final Fantasy 7 I wasn't playing to further my stats or whatever, it was to fight the Shinra corporation, and then to save the planet... A strong plot can make you want to play a game because you want the enemies to get what's coming to them and (like in most films) you find yourself kind of rooting on, not the 'good guy' but (most of the time anyway...) the main character... there's a word for it... the main character, the person everything revolves around... but I can't remember it right now... Anyway, you find yourself kind of rooting on this person, and when this happens in a game, it drives you to carry the game out to completion. To guide the character through everything.
But while this plotline can and will drive you to play, gameplay still remains paramount. If a game is good enough in gameplay terms, the player wants to carry on gaming anyway. In the Zelda series I don't think you are made (I wasn't anyway...) to care much for Link, but I played through both Zelda games on N64 and some on other systems because it was a great game. I wasn't thinking 'ooh, only a few more dungeons till I find the princess' I was thinking, 'I wonder what cool item will be in the next dungeon' or 'I wonder what huge boss will be next'.
But the plotline I have found to be one of the best is that of the original Baldurs Gate. I love that game! But it's plot allowed you to be good or evil, and left a hell of a lot of mystery the first time round. And while, in the end you do end up doing the 'save the realm' thing, you don't actually know you will be doing this at the start, and indeed till very near the end. And throughout the plot has a lot of referance to your character (which is like FF7... 'save the world' is there, but the plot also incorporates a kind of sub plot which involves your main character which is kind of intertwined with the 'save the world' part...) and this helps it feel less like it is simply 'save the world' (again).
Anyway, not sure if this is off the point, but it was about plotlines anyhow, so I think it must have been relevant somehow :D
What do you mean OOT is not a cliche?!
Stopping a ginger man with green skin from getting three pieces of a gold triangle stuck to three people's hands (one of whom is dressed up in fairy clothes) is about the most cliched story you can get!!
Although I could be wrong.....
Stopping a ginger man with green skin from getting three pieces of a gold triangle stuck to three people's hands (one of whom is dressed up in fairy clothes) is about the most cliched story you can get!!
Although I could be wrong.....
But the main OOT plot wans't to save the princess was it? It was to stop Gannondorf getting his hands on the power of the Triforce, and he only kidnapped her when the triforce split into three and she had on of the parts. In, fact, he doesn't kidnap her until the very last dungeon of the game! She spends her time in hiding as Sheik and helps you out, so actually the OOT storyline didn't really have anything to do with 'save the princess'.
I know what you meant happy, but after a few minutes searching on the web I couldn't find the storytypes, and so tryed to fudge my incompetance by quoting Aristotle! (Actually, I though he wrote the 7 perfect stories to begin with??). Ah well!
Sonic
Sonic
No I'm not talking about Aristotle. I'm talking about componenets to a story, for instance love interest, etc. There's only six genre-y-type things that all movie plots fall into in some way.
I'd agree with what you said about Mario, the plot is just the there to give a reason for what you're doing. But I wouldn't with Zelda, I got really involved in the OOT storyline and found that it perfectly complimented the gameplay. Okay it was the usual save the Princess cliche but there was so much more to it than that.
Starlight, odd you use the words "obviously I am talking about Mario"... I was going to say that obviously I was talking about Zelda! The Miyamoto line in the title wasn't wrong!
However, I talked about neither Zelda nor Mario in the topic because they are "allowed" to use the "save the princess" storyline because of their style. I know it sounds fairly hypocritical of me saying this, but I'd back it up by saying that these games are 100% gameplay driven- the story is just something to justify what you do. (I think Strafex made this point). Hence you need not worry if it is cliched because you're not making it a selling point in the way that MGS2 did.
Oh, and Mr. Happy, to answer your question, Aristotle did say that there were 6 parts to any story:
1. Opening scene
2. Plot point one
3. Midpoint or reversal scene
4. Plot point two
5. Climax
6. Ending scene
However, his points, named in "Poetics", were based on the Classical Greek style of plays. I've been looking this up, and plenty of sites have said that the story has evolved now, and become limitless. Try fitting a David Cronnenburg film to these points! Opening scene? Ending? HA!
Now, to add a bit to the topic...
Perhaps the point I should have been making right from the start (which I actually started making half way through) was that games plots and film plots are very different. There is no problem in having a cliched games plot IF the game is not trying to emulate a film and is created as a game. That is, the game is developed specifically to be interactive, with strong gameplay and the player's actions affect the role of the game. Clearly, this last point can never be done with a linear film plot.
When a game tries to emulate a film style, the focus of the game changes. Players are no longer playing to advance the game (like you do by collecting stars in mario, or completing stages in Sonic)... instead people play for the sole reason of advancing the plot- they're playing to see the next cut scene! (or ocassionally get to the next big battle). This is certainly how I felt playing MGS2.
Sonic
However, I talked about neither Zelda nor Mario in the topic because they are "allowed" to use the "save the princess" storyline because of their style. I know it sounds fairly hypocritical of me saying this, but I'd back it up by saying that these games are 100% gameplay driven- the story is just something to justify what you do. (I think Strafex made this point). Hence you need not worry if it is cliched because you're not making it a selling point in the way that MGS2 did.
Oh, and Mr. Happy, to answer your question, Aristotle did say that there were 6 parts to any story:
1. Opening scene
2. Plot point one
3. Midpoint or reversal scene
4. Plot point two
5. Climax
6. Ending scene
However, his points, named in "Poetics", were based on the Classical Greek style of plays. I've been looking this up, and plenty of sites have said that the story has evolved now, and become limitless. Try fitting a David Cronnenburg film to these points! Opening scene? Ending? HA!
Now, to add a bit to the topic...
Perhaps the point I should have been making right from the start (which I actually started making half way through) was that games plots and film plots are very different. There is no problem in having a cliched games plot IF the game is not trying to emulate a film and is created as a game. That is, the game is developed specifically to be interactive, with strong gameplay and the player's actions affect the role of the game. Clearly, this last point can never be done with a linear film plot.
When a game tries to emulate a film style, the focus of the game changes. Players are no longer playing to advance the game (like you do by collecting stars in mario, or completing stages in Sonic)... instead people play for the sole reason of advancing the plot- they're playing to see the next cut scene! (or ocassionally get to the next big battle). This is certainly how I felt playing MGS2.
Sonic
Page: