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Sinn Fein has won 3 seats in the Irish General Elections including an ex-gun runner. Is this a shameful time for the Irish (for voting in a gun runner)?
Considering it isn't shameful for the British to have ex-terrorists running a part of their country, then I'd have to say no. If it isn't shameful for unconvicted and unpunished ex-terrorists to hold a large degree of power within the UK, then it isn't shameful for a convicted gunrunner who has served his sentence to be elected as one TD among a maximum of 6 forms Sinn Fein in a Dail of around 100. It's not as if he's in government or anything.
I don't see any problem with a person who has committed a crime in the past entering the Dail, once they paid for their crime. Half the politicians in Northern Ireland are former paramilitaries, gunrunners or murderers, it's nothing new. They come from both sides; there are an equal number (if not more) of former UVF or UDA activists involved in politics as those who were in Republican 'terrorist' organizations. You get convicted of a crime, go to jail and while you're in there with f@ck all else to do you study up on Marxism and law (if you're a Nationalist) and come out the other side an articulate political figurehead. It's also hardly fair to criticize the legitimacy of figures in Irish politics when countless Tory MPs are known racists, even Duncan-Smith has far-right links and the fact the Labor party continually has to fend off allegations of corruption. Politics isn't a nice, clean, respectable business anywhere so why should one expect Ireland to be an exception?
As much as I don’t like it, I saw a report on this on the news and there’s apparently a lot of young voters who don’t associate Sinn Fein with what happened in the north and they didn’t exactly talk about this in interviews too much. Also a lot of young voters are sick of the main parties taking them for granted. Sinn Fein has targeted the same kind of disaffected voters that the far right have had success with across Europe. Thankfully, they aren't far right loonies, and are more center-left. Every first time voter in the Kerry constituency got a letter from Sinn Fein. Two people I know were going to vote on the basis that someone called to their door. A swift education in the art of not being hit by me occurred before the election. I never realized people could be swayed so easily.
First of all, the election process in Ireland is similar only to that of Malta and is fairly complex - with the voter presented with a list of 15 candidates from various parties and putting a number next to each name - voting 1-15 in order of preference. Also, there is quite a high absenteeism percentage in Ireland, thanks to the government and media not explaining clearly how the voting process works and by not making people aware of an election. A friend who lives there was at the vote count in the city centre and there were a large number of ballots filled in with peoples preferences being strewn all across the board (Fianna Fail as first, Sinn Fein being second, green being third, etc. meaning that the votes were spread all across the political line) which indicates peoples vote depends on who they like, not on their political policies at all. So if a candidate was, hypothetically, running for a national Irish front, all he would have to do to gain a large vote would be to come across as a nice person to the majority - i.e. touring schools, shopping markets, and look sympathetically upon people’s problems.
Secondly, what a lot of people overlook, is that Ireland has the most corrupted government in Western Europe (even worse than the Italians) and it is all thanks to the likes of Charlie "brown paper envelope" Haughy and Bertie Ahern. So why then, are Fianna Fail miles ahead of any other party when it is clear that they are more corrupt than Mayor Quimby? Well its simple. People aren’t told, the information isn’t spread and people become ignorant and vote for Bertie because he wants to build a football stadium; never minding the fact that he is one of the most corrupt politicians in Ireland.
Lastly, Sinn Fein was 80-odd votes form winning a sixth. I am glad that a shift has swung to the left. I despise Fianna Fail. I have heard Gerry Adams speak and I must say he comes across as a very intelligent man and a good political thinker.
Northern Ireland is a god-awful sh@tty mess. I don’t expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime (and I am 21). Also, Northern Ireland is largely unaffected by Irish politics. And don’t think that Dr. Ian Paisly and some of the other leading unionist politicians in Northern Ireland aren’t mixed up with the Red hand defenders, the UVF and other unionist extremists. I don’t condone what the IRA does; it’s horrible. Irishmen killing Irishmen. Celtic Vs. Rangers is just as bad. But the IRA doesn’t do anything that the SAS, UVF and RUC don’t do. So, a shameful day for Ireland? Yes, but only because we continue to keep Fianna Fail in power. Fianna Fail is known advocates of anti-abortionists, anti-divorce, and just about anything pro-catholic (the lack of segregation between church and state here is sad) as well as being right wing thieves.
As for Europe and LePen, it is an ominous warning that absenteeism will help them prevail and then we will only have ourselves to blame. And remember, as Thomas Jefferson said: "The evil in this world prevails because the righteous are willing and content to sit and do nothing to stop them."
Anyone who studies history will know that the last time there was a popular swing to the political extremes, there was a war (you may have heard of it, it was called World War Two). Is the latest round of political extremism setting us up for something terrible to happen in Europe? Bear in mind, if this is the case, then we are only witnessing the beginning of the electoral success. What can mainstream parties do about it? Anyone who has a clue will realize that swings to 'extremes' occur every few years anyway. It could be argued that winning 3 seats is not really a "popular swing". As for Europe, the far right hasn't done well enough to threaten anything at all. Maybe they will one day, but not yet.
I don't condone Sinn Fein in anyway, nor do I ever plan on voting for them but many of the most legendry figures in world politics, both today and in the past, have been terrorists - at least from a certain point of view. We have Nelson Mandela - he's now a hero to millions. George Washington was judged to be a terrorist by the British around the time of the American war of independence. Almost every member of the first Dail was a terrorist. As the Dead Kennedy’s said, “Jesus Was A Terrorist.” According to one history book I read, he really was. Up to and including guerrilla warfare. Well, I don't think the historian who wrote it has much support - mainly because it’s such a radical and contentious idea. From what I remember it was reasonably well researched though. In terms of what sort of guerrilla warfare - figure the usual Jewish resistance style that plagued the Romans. Ambushing officials (tax collectors were a favorite), raids on garrisons etc. The book I read proposed that Jesus was just another Jewish resistance fighter; his sole distinguishing feature being that he started his own cult (in protest over what some saw as the official Jewish church "collaborating" with Rome). Note: Bill Hicks has turned me cynical when it comes to politics, and I know way too much about Irish politics.
Thanks for reading,
LF
Considering it isn't shameful for the British to have ex-terrorists running a part of their country, then I'd have to say no. If it isn't shameful for unconvicted and unpunished ex-terrorists to hold a large degree of power within the UK, then it isn't shameful for a convicted gunrunner who has served his sentence to be elected as one TD among a maximum of 6 forms Sinn Fein in a Dail of around 100. It's not as if he's in government or anything.
I don't see any problem with a person who has committed a crime in the past entering the Dail, once they paid for their crime. Half the politicians in Northern Ireland are former paramilitaries, gunrunners or murderers, it's nothing new. They come from both sides; there are an equal number (if not more) of former UVF or UDA activists involved in politics as those who were in Republican 'terrorist' organizations. You get convicted of a crime, go to jail and while you're in there with f@ck all else to do you study up on Marxism and law (if you're a Nationalist) and come out the other side an articulate political figurehead. It's also hardly fair to criticize the legitimacy of figures in Irish politics when countless Tory MPs are known racists, even Duncan-Smith has far-right links and the fact the Labor party continually has to fend off allegations of corruption. Politics isn't a nice, clean, respectable business anywhere so why should one expect Ireland to be an exception?
As much as I don’t like it, I saw a report on this on the news and there’s apparently a lot of young voters who don’t associate Sinn Fein with what happened in the north and they didn’t exactly talk about this in interviews too much. Also a lot of young voters are sick of the main parties taking them for granted. Sinn Fein has targeted the same kind of disaffected voters that the far right have had success with across Europe. Thankfully, they aren't far right loonies, and are more center-left. Every first time voter in the Kerry constituency got a letter from Sinn Fein. Two people I know were going to vote on the basis that someone called to their door. A swift education in the art of not being hit by me occurred before the election. I never realized people could be swayed so easily.
First of all, the election process in Ireland is similar only to that of Malta and is fairly complex - with the voter presented with a list of 15 candidates from various parties and putting a number next to each name - voting 1-15 in order of preference. Also, there is quite a high absenteeism percentage in Ireland, thanks to the government and media not explaining clearly how the voting process works and by not making people aware of an election. A friend who lives there was at the vote count in the city centre and there were a large number of ballots filled in with peoples preferences being strewn all across the board (Fianna Fail as first, Sinn Fein being second, green being third, etc. meaning that the votes were spread all across the political line) which indicates peoples vote depends on who they like, not on their political policies at all. So if a candidate was, hypothetically, running for a national Irish front, all he would have to do to gain a large vote would be to come across as a nice person to the majority - i.e. touring schools, shopping markets, and look sympathetically upon people’s problems.
Secondly, what a lot of people overlook, is that Ireland has the most corrupted government in Western Europe (even worse than the Italians) and it is all thanks to the likes of Charlie "brown paper envelope" Haughy and Bertie Ahern. So why then, are Fianna Fail miles ahead of any other party when it is clear that they are more corrupt than Mayor Quimby? Well its simple. People aren’t told, the information isn’t spread and people become ignorant and vote for Bertie because he wants to build a football stadium; never minding the fact that he is one of the most corrupt politicians in Ireland.
Lastly, Sinn Fein was 80-odd votes form winning a sixth. I am glad that a shift has swung to the left. I despise Fianna Fail. I have heard Gerry Adams speak and I must say he comes across as a very intelligent man and a good political thinker.
Northern Ireland is a god-awful sh@tty mess. I don’t expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime (and I am 21). Also, Northern Ireland is largely unaffected by Irish politics. And don’t think that Dr. Ian Paisly and some of the other leading unionist politicians in Northern Ireland aren’t mixed up with the Red hand defenders, the UVF and other unionist extremists. I don’t condone what the IRA does; it’s horrible. Irishmen killing Irishmen. Celtic Vs. Rangers is just as bad. But the IRA doesn’t do anything that the SAS, UVF and RUC don’t do. So, a shameful day for Ireland? Yes, but only because we continue to keep Fianna Fail in power. Fianna Fail is known advocates of anti-abortionists, anti-divorce, and just about anything pro-catholic (the lack of segregation between church and state here is sad) as well as being right wing thieves.
As for Europe and LePen, it is an ominous warning that absenteeism will help them prevail and then we will only have ourselves to blame. And remember, as Thomas Jefferson said: "The evil in this world prevails because the righteous are willing and content to sit and do nothing to stop them."
Anyone who studies history will know that the last time there was a popular swing to the political extremes, there was a war (you may have heard of it, it was called World War Two). Is the latest round of political extremism setting us up for something terrible to happen in Europe? Bear in mind, if this is the case, then we are only witnessing the beginning of the electoral success. What can mainstream parties do about it? Anyone who has a clue will realize that swings to 'extremes' occur every few years anyway. It could be argued that winning 3 seats is not really a "popular swing". As for Europe, the far right hasn't done well enough to threaten anything at all. Maybe they will one day, but not yet.
I don't condone Sinn Fein in anyway, nor do I ever plan on voting for them but many of the most legendry figures in world politics, both today and in the past, have been terrorists - at least from a certain point of view. We have Nelson Mandela - he's now a hero to millions. George Washington was judged to be a terrorist by the British around the time of the American war of independence. Almost every member of the first Dail was a terrorist. As the Dead Kennedy’s said, “Jesus Was A Terrorist.” According to one history book I read, he really was. Up to and including guerrilla warfare. Well, I don't think the historian who wrote it has much support - mainly because it’s such a radical and contentious idea. From what I remember it was reasonably well researched though. In terms of what sort of guerrilla warfare - figure the usual Jewish resistance style that plagued the Romans. Ambushing officials (tax collectors were a favorite), raids on garrisons etc. The book I read proposed that Jesus was just another Jewish resistance fighter; his sole distinguishing feature being that he started his own cult (in protest over what some saw as the official Jewish church "collaborating" with Rome). Note: Bill Hicks has turned me cynical when it comes to politics, and I know way too much about Irish politics.
Thanks for reading,
LF
Page:
Sinn Fein has won 3 seats in the Irish General Elections including an ex-gun runner. Is this a shameful time for the Irish (for voting in a gun runner)?
Considering it isn't shameful for the British to have ex-terrorists running a part of their country, then I'd have to say no. If it isn't shameful for unconvicted and unpunished ex-terrorists to hold a large degree of power within the UK, then it isn't shameful for a convicted gunrunner who has served his sentence to be elected as one TD among a maximum of 6 forms Sinn Fein in a Dail of around 100. It's not as if he's in government or anything.
I don't see any problem with a person who has committed a crime in the past entering the Dail, once they paid for their crime. Half the politicians in Northern Ireland are former paramilitaries, gunrunners or murderers, it's nothing new. They come from both sides; there are an equal number (if not more) of former UVF or UDA activists involved in politics as those who were in Republican 'terrorist' organizations. You get convicted of a crime, go to jail and while you're in there with f@ck all else to do you study up on Marxism and law (if you're a Nationalist) and come out the other side an articulate political figurehead. It's also hardly fair to criticize the legitimacy of figures in Irish politics when countless Tory MPs are known racists, even Duncan-Smith has far-right links and the fact the Labor party continually has to fend off allegations of corruption. Politics isn't a nice, clean, respectable business anywhere so why should one expect Ireland to be an exception?
As much as I don’t like it, I saw a report on this on the news and there’s apparently a lot of young voters who don’t associate Sinn Fein with what happened in the north and they didn’t exactly talk about this in interviews too much. Also a lot of young voters are sick of the main parties taking them for granted. Sinn Fein has targeted the same kind of disaffected voters that the far right have had success with across Europe. Thankfully, they aren't far right loonies, and are more center-left. Every first time voter in the Kerry constituency got a letter from Sinn Fein. Two people I know were going to vote on the basis that someone called to their door. A swift education in the art of not being hit by me occurred before the election. I never realized people could be swayed so easily.
First of all, the election process in Ireland is similar only to that of Malta and is fairly complex - with the voter presented with a list of 15 candidates from various parties and putting a number next to each name - voting 1-15 in order of preference. Also, there is quite a high absenteeism percentage in Ireland, thanks to the government and media not explaining clearly how the voting process works and by not making people aware of an election. A friend who lives there was at the vote count in the city centre and there were a large number of ballots filled in with peoples preferences being strewn all across the board (Fianna Fail as first, Sinn Fein being second, green being third, etc. meaning that the votes were spread all across the political line) which indicates peoples vote depends on who they like, not on their political policies at all. So if a candidate was, hypothetically, running for a national Irish front, all he would have to do to gain a large vote would be to come across as a nice person to the majority - i.e. touring schools, shopping markets, and look sympathetically upon people’s problems.
Secondly, what a lot of people overlook, is that Ireland has the most corrupted government in Western Europe (even worse than the Italians) and it is all thanks to the likes of Charlie "brown paper envelope" Haughy and Bertie Ahern. So why then, are Fianna Fail miles ahead of any other party when it is clear that they are more corrupt than Mayor Quimby? Well its simple. People aren’t told, the information isn’t spread and people become ignorant and vote for Bertie because he wants to build a football stadium; never minding the fact that he is one of the most corrupt politicians in Ireland.
Lastly, Sinn Fein was 80-odd votes form winning a sixth. I am glad that a shift has swung to the left. I despise Fianna Fail. I have heard Gerry Adams speak and I must say he comes across as a very intelligent man and a good political thinker.
Northern Ireland is a god-awful sh@tty mess. I don’t expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime (and I am 21). Also, Northern Ireland is largely unaffected by Irish politics. And don’t think that Dr. Ian Paisly and some of the other leading unionist politicians in Northern Ireland aren’t mixed up with the Red hand defenders, the UVF and other unionist extremists. I don’t condone what the IRA does; it’s horrible. Irishmen killing Irishmen. Celtic Vs. Rangers is just as bad. But the IRA doesn’t do anything that the SAS, UVF and RUC don’t do. So, a shameful day for Ireland? Yes, but only because we continue to keep Fianna Fail in power. Fianna Fail is known advocates of anti-abortionists, anti-divorce, and just about anything pro-catholic (the lack of segregation between church and state here is sad) as well as being right wing thieves.
As for Europe and LePen, it is an ominous warning that absenteeism will help them prevail and then we will only have ourselves to blame. And remember, as Thomas Jefferson said: "The evil in this world prevails because the righteous are willing and content to sit and do nothing to stop them."
Anyone who studies history will know that the last time there was a popular swing to the political extremes, there was a war (you may have heard of it, it was called World War Two). Is the latest round of political extremism setting us up for something terrible to happen in Europe? Bear in mind, if this is the case, then we are only witnessing the beginning of the electoral success. What can mainstream parties do about it? Anyone who has a clue will realize that swings to 'extremes' occur every few years anyway. It could be argued that winning 3 seats is not really a "popular swing". As for Europe, the far right hasn't done well enough to threaten anything at all. Maybe they will one day, but not yet.
I don't condone Sinn Fein in anyway, nor do I ever plan on voting for them but many of the most legendry figures in world politics, both today and in the past, have been terrorists - at least from a certain point of view. We have Nelson Mandela - he's now a hero to millions. George Washington was judged to be a terrorist by the British around the time of the American war of independence. Almost every member of the first Dail was a terrorist. As the Dead Kennedy’s said, “Jesus Was A Terrorist.” According to one history book I read, he really was. Up to and including guerrilla warfare. Well, I don't think the historian who wrote it has much support - mainly because it’s such a radical and contentious idea. From what I remember it was reasonably well researched though. In terms of what sort of guerrilla warfare - figure the usual Jewish resistance style that plagued the Romans. Ambushing officials (tax collectors were a favorite), raids on garrisons etc. The book I read proposed that Jesus was just another Jewish resistance fighter; his sole distinguishing feature being that he started his own cult (in protest over what some saw as the official Jewish church "collaborating" with Rome). Note: Bill Hicks has turned me cynical when it comes to politics, and I know way too much about Irish politics.
Thanks for reading,
LF
Considering it isn't shameful for the British to have ex-terrorists running a part of their country, then I'd have to say no. If it isn't shameful for unconvicted and unpunished ex-terrorists to hold a large degree of power within the UK, then it isn't shameful for a convicted gunrunner who has served his sentence to be elected as one TD among a maximum of 6 forms Sinn Fein in a Dail of around 100. It's not as if he's in government or anything.
I don't see any problem with a person who has committed a crime in the past entering the Dail, once they paid for their crime. Half the politicians in Northern Ireland are former paramilitaries, gunrunners or murderers, it's nothing new. They come from both sides; there are an equal number (if not more) of former UVF or UDA activists involved in politics as those who were in Republican 'terrorist' organizations. You get convicted of a crime, go to jail and while you're in there with f@ck all else to do you study up on Marxism and law (if you're a Nationalist) and come out the other side an articulate political figurehead. It's also hardly fair to criticize the legitimacy of figures in Irish politics when countless Tory MPs are known racists, even Duncan-Smith has far-right links and the fact the Labor party continually has to fend off allegations of corruption. Politics isn't a nice, clean, respectable business anywhere so why should one expect Ireland to be an exception?
As much as I don’t like it, I saw a report on this on the news and there’s apparently a lot of young voters who don’t associate Sinn Fein with what happened in the north and they didn’t exactly talk about this in interviews too much. Also a lot of young voters are sick of the main parties taking them for granted. Sinn Fein has targeted the same kind of disaffected voters that the far right have had success with across Europe. Thankfully, they aren't far right loonies, and are more center-left. Every first time voter in the Kerry constituency got a letter from Sinn Fein. Two people I know were going to vote on the basis that someone called to their door. A swift education in the art of not being hit by me occurred before the election. I never realized people could be swayed so easily.
First of all, the election process in Ireland is similar only to that of Malta and is fairly complex - with the voter presented with a list of 15 candidates from various parties and putting a number next to each name - voting 1-15 in order of preference. Also, there is quite a high absenteeism percentage in Ireland, thanks to the government and media not explaining clearly how the voting process works and by not making people aware of an election. A friend who lives there was at the vote count in the city centre and there were a large number of ballots filled in with peoples preferences being strewn all across the board (Fianna Fail as first, Sinn Fein being second, green being third, etc. meaning that the votes were spread all across the political line) which indicates peoples vote depends on who they like, not on their political policies at all. So if a candidate was, hypothetically, running for a national Irish front, all he would have to do to gain a large vote would be to come across as a nice person to the majority - i.e. touring schools, shopping markets, and look sympathetically upon people’s problems.
Secondly, what a lot of people overlook, is that Ireland has the most corrupted government in Western Europe (even worse than the Italians) and it is all thanks to the likes of Charlie "brown paper envelope" Haughy and Bertie Ahern. So why then, are Fianna Fail miles ahead of any other party when it is clear that they are more corrupt than Mayor Quimby? Well its simple. People aren’t told, the information isn’t spread and people become ignorant and vote for Bertie because he wants to build a football stadium; never minding the fact that he is one of the most corrupt politicians in Ireland.
Lastly, Sinn Fein was 80-odd votes form winning a sixth. I am glad that a shift has swung to the left. I despise Fianna Fail. I have heard Gerry Adams speak and I must say he comes across as a very intelligent man and a good political thinker.
Northern Ireland is a god-awful sh@tty mess. I don’t expect to see a united Ireland in my lifetime (and I am 21). Also, Northern Ireland is largely unaffected by Irish politics. And don’t think that Dr. Ian Paisly and some of the other leading unionist politicians in Northern Ireland aren’t mixed up with the Red hand defenders, the UVF and other unionist extremists. I don’t condone what the IRA does; it’s horrible. Irishmen killing Irishmen. Celtic Vs. Rangers is just as bad. But the IRA doesn’t do anything that the SAS, UVF and RUC don’t do. So, a shameful day for Ireland? Yes, but only because we continue to keep Fianna Fail in power. Fianna Fail is known advocates of anti-abortionists, anti-divorce, and just about anything pro-catholic (the lack of segregation between church and state here is sad) as well as being right wing thieves.
As for Europe and LePen, it is an ominous warning that absenteeism will help them prevail and then we will only have ourselves to blame. And remember, as Thomas Jefferson said: "The evil in this world prevails because the righteous are willing and content to sit and do nothing to stop them."
Anyone who studies history will know that the last time there was a popular swing to the political extremes, there was a war (you may have heard of it, it was called World War Two). Is the latest round of political extremism setting us up for something terrible to happen in Europe? Bear in mind, if this is the case, then we are only witnessing the beginning of the electoral success. What can mainstream parties do about it? Anyone who has a clue will realize that swings to 'extremes' occur every few years anyway. It could be argued that winning 3 seats is not really a "popular swing". As for Europe, the far right hasn't done well enough to threaten anything at all. Maybe they will one day, but not yet.
I don't condone Sinn Fein in anyway, nor do I ever plan on voting for them but many of the most legendry figures in world politics, both today and in the past, have been terrorists - at least from a certain point of view. We have Nelson Mandela - he's now a hero to millions. George Washington was judged to be a terrorist by the British around the time of the American war of independence. Almost every member of the first Dail was a terrorist. As the Dead Kennedy’s said, “Jesus Was A Terrorist.” According to one history book I read, he really was. Up to and including guerrilla warfare. Well, I don't think the historian who wrote it has much support - mainly because it’s such a radical and contentious idea. From what I remember it was reasonably well researched though. In terms of what sort of guerrilla warfare - figure the usual Jewish resistance style that plagued the Romans. Ambushing officials (tax collectors were a favorite), raids on garrisons etc. The book I read proposed that Jesus was just another Jewish resistance fighter; his sole distinguishing feature being that he started his own cult (in protest over what some saw as the official Jewish church "collaborating" with Rome). Note: Bill Hicks has turned me cynical when it comes to politics, and I know way too much about Irish politics.
Thanks for reading,
LF
I voted for Sinn Fein No. 1 in the general election as I feel they have come a long way on the political stage. The representative in my area is Aoengus O Snodaigh and he is a valued member of my community. Sinn Fein have done a lot of good in my area, they got computers for the schools, started an adult education programme and have helped in fundraising for various things. This gun-toting image they have is a load of rubbish these days. Sinn Fein are not the IRA, they have a link to them, but they are NOT them. They are a completely legitimate political party.
Just a small correction in your post LF- Sinn Fein actually won 5 seats in the election.
Trish wrote:
> This gun-toting image they have is a
> load of rubbish these days. Sinn Fein are not the IRA, they have a
> link to them, but they are NOT them. They are a completely legitimate
> political party.
Right.
And Osama Bin Laden isn't really a terrorist. He doesn't plant the bombs himself, he only supports those that do.
> This gun-toting image they have is a
> load of rubbish these days. Sinn Fein are not the IRA, they have a
> link to them, but they are NOT them. They are a completely legitimate
> political party.
Right.
And Osama Bin Laden isn't really a terrorist. He doesn't plant the bombs himself, he only supports those that do.
Sinn Fein has never condoned any bonbings or terrorist acts the IRA have carried out. They have always been at pains to stress that they condemn violence and believe in talking, not fighting. I certainly never heard of Gerry Adams ordering someone to bomb something, did you???
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> Trish wrote:
> This gun-toting image they have is a
> load of rubbish these days. Sinn Fein are not the IRA, they have a
> link to them, but they are NOT them. They are a completely
> legitimate
> political party.
>
>
> Right.
>
> And Osama Bin Laden isn't really a terrorist. He doesn't plant the
> bombs himself, he only supports those that do.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> Trish wrote:
> This gun-toting image they have is a
> load of rubbish these days. Sinn Fein are not the IRA, they have a
> link to them, but they are NOT them. They are a completely
> legitimate
> political party.
>
>
> Right.
>
> And Osama Bin Laden isn't really a terrorist. He doesn't plant the
> bombs himself, he only supports those that do.
Not publicly, no. But then none of them have the stones to do anything publicly and out in the open.
But then I never heard him telling them to stop, either. Don't watch the right hand too closely, because the left one will stab you in the back.
The very fact that they have any link with the IRA at all effectively condones what they do, so I'm afraid that just doesn't wash.
They're all scum as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I just hope the next attack kills someone you know, and not someone I know.
As for this BS:
"Sinn Fein has never condoned any bonbings or terrorist acts the IRA have carried out. They have always been at pains to stress that they condemn violence and believe in talking, not fighting."
Check out http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0845360.html
In particular:
"In 1921 the British government yielded and began negotiations to establish the Irish Free State. The partition provisions of the resulting treaty did not, however, satisfy the militant wing of Sinn Féin, represented by De Valera, and civil war ensued. Gradually most of the country became reconciled to the new government, and Sinn Féin virtually came to an end when De Valera withdrew from it in 1927 and entered the Dáil.
In 1938 the few remaining intransigents merged with the Irish Republican Army (IRA), becoming the terrorist organization's political arm in advocating unification of Ireland by force. In 1969, along with the IRA, it split into official and provisional wings. The Marxist-oriented official Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party, while the provisional wing continued to support the provisional IRA's use of terrorist activities to achieve unification."
But then I never heard him telling them to stop, either. Don't watch the right hand too closely, because the left one will stab you in the back.
The very fact that they have any link with the IRA at all effectively condones what they do, so I'm afraid that just doesn't wash.
They're all scum as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I just hope the next attack kills someone you know, and not someone I know.
As for this BS:
"Sinn Fein has never condoned any bonbings or terrorist acts the IRA have carried out. They have always been at pains to stress that they condemn violence and believe in talking, not fighting."
Check out http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/history/A0845360.html
In particular:
"In 1921 the British government yielded and began negotiations to establish the Irish Free State. The partition provisions of the resulting treaty did not, however, satisfy the militant wing of Sinn Féin, represented by De Valera, and civil war ensued. Gradually most of the country became reconciled to the new government, and Sinn Féin virtually came to an end when De Valera withdrew from it in 1927 and entered the Dáil.
In 1938 the few remaining intransigents merged with the Irish Republican Army (IRA), becoming the terrorist organization's political arm in advocating unification of Ireland by force. In 1969, along with the IRA, it split into official and provisional wings. The Marxist-oriented official Sinn Féin eventually became the Workers' Party, while the provisional wing continued to support the provisional IRA's use of terrorist activities to achieve unification."
Excellent post Lawless - despite your dubious tagline ;~)
Trish wrote:
> Sinn Fein has never condoned any bonbings or terrorist acts the IRA have carried out. They have always been at pains to stress that they condemn violence and believe in talking, not fighting. I certainly never heard of Gerry Adams ordering someone to bomb something, did you???
I am as glad as anyone that the IRA has now laid down its weapons. I welcome it as a step towards peace. But that doesn't mean we should whitewash the (very recent) history of Sinn Fein. It has always been the political wing of the IRA: fundraising and organising for a group who, whatever slant you try to put on it, were terrorists. Killers of innocents. The links between the two are undeniable, but the national leaders have always been quick to isolate themselves from actions further down the command chain. The relationship between Sinn Fein and the IRA was not dissimilar to the way that US governments used the CIA to do its dirty work in Central America: shadowy, deniable but definitely there.
To say that Sinn Fein condemned violence is just rubbish. From the eighties and nineties I have memories of Gerry Adams calling fatal bombings 'unfortunate', but when challenged to condemn the murders, he would just refuse. This was a real sticking point in the nascent peace process.
Irish nationalism has always been a legitimate political movement, but Gerry Adams etc. tried to advance its cause in illegitimate ways. The IRA and its Sinn Fein paymasters were never about guerrilla warfare, attacking only military targets, but about terror, pure and simple. We shouldn't forget that.
Trish wrote:
> Sinn Fein has never condoned any bonbings or terrorist acts the IRA have carried out. They have always been at pains to stress that they condemn violence and believe in talking, not fighting. I certainly never heard of Gerry Adams ordering someone to bomb something, did you???
I am as glad as anyone that the IRA has now laid down its weapons. I welcome it as a step towards peace. But that doesn't mean we should whitewash the (very recent) history of Sinn Fein. It has always been the political wing of the IRA: fundraising and organising for a group who, whatever slant you try to put on it, were terrorists. Killers of innocents. The links between the two are undeniable, but the national leaders have always been quick to isolate themselves from actions further down the command chain. The relationship between Sinn Fein and the IRA was not dissimilar to the way that US governments used the CIA to do its dirty work in Central America: shadowy, deniable but definitely there.
To say that Sinn Fein condemned violence is just rubbish. From the eighties and nineties I have memories of Gerry Adams calling fatal bombings 'unfortunate', but when challenged to condemn the murders, he would just refuse. This was a real sticking point in the nascent peace process.
Irish nationalism has always been a legitimate political movement, but Gerry Adams etc. tried to advance its cause in illegitimate ways. The IRA and its Sinn Fein paymasters were never about guerrilla warfare, attacking only military targets, but about terror, pure and simple. We shouldn't forget that.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> They're all scum as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I just hope the
> next attack kills someone you know, and not someone I know.
My family has already lost two members (my grandfather and aunt) in terrorist attacks. I do not hold Sinn Fein responsible for this even though the IRA were the bombers as I realise that the members of Sinn Fein are not terrorists. Yes, some have previous convictions for which they have served their time, but I would not classify them now as terrorists. I have a member of Sinn Fein living five doors away from me who is one of the 5 elected to the Dail and he has no history of terrorism nor knows any terrorists. He is campaigning to keep the Irish culture alive in this country as are many of the other members of Sinn Fein. Amyone who believes a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for terrorism is extremely naive.
> They're all scum as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I just hope the
> next attack kills someone you know, and not someone I know.
My family has already lost two members (my grandfather and aunt) in terrorist attacks. I do not hold Sinn Fein responsible for this even though the IRA were the bombers as I realise that the members of Sinn Fein are not terrorists. Yes, some have previous convictions for which they have served their time, but I would not classify them now as terrorists. I have a member of Sinn Fein living five doors away from me who is one of the 5 elected to the Dail and he has no history of terrorism nor knows any terrorists. He is campaigning to keep the Irish culture alive in this country as are many of the other members of Sinn Fein. Amyone who believes a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for terrorism is extremely naive.
Trish wrote:
> My family has already lost two members (my grandfather and aunt) in
> terrorist attacks. I do not hold Sinn Fein responsible for this even
> though the IRA were the bombers as I realise that the members of Sinn
> Fein are not terrorists.
I find it hard to believe that anyone could vote for a party who have actively supported the terrorists who killed two members of their family. It sounds to me like some kind of Stockholme Syndrome.
If Sinn Fein have no links to terrorism, why is it that Sinn Fein are the ones attending the summits for the negotiations? Why are the IRA not there themselves? Why do Sinn Fein take them the proposals to see if they are okay? In short, why does any communication to the IRA have to go through them?
Sinn Fein are at worst actively involed, or at best simple lackeys - runners and 'gophers' - for those holding the guns.
> Yes, some have previous convictions for which they have served their
> time
Good grief, no. Many have them have served little or no time, thanks to our government bowing to pressure and selling out - making the lives of those killed worthless.
> but I would not classify them now as terrorists.
The you are either hideously blinkered or a fool. If they have killed for the IRA, they are terrorists and always will be. If the current peace talks fell through tomorrow, they would no doubt be back out there planning to do it all again.
> I have a member of Sinn Fein living five doors away from
> me who is one of the 5 elected to the Dail and he has no history of
> terrorism nor knows any terrorists.
Maybe not, but of course he wouldn't exactly advertise it if he was, would he?
"Excuse me, do you know any terrorists?"
"Yes, of course I do. Would you like me to introduce you?"
> He is campaigning to keep the Irish culture alive in this country
Nothing wrong with that. Of course, if you try to do that in England you're a racist, but still.
> Amyone who believes a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for
> terrorism is extremely naive.
Even Martin McGuiness (Sinn Feins education minister, I believe) is a convicted terrorist, who once said "I am a member of the Derry Brigade of Oglaigh na hEireann and am very, very proud of it."
There's only one naive person here.
> My family has already lost two members (my grandfather and aunt) in
> terrorist attacks. I do not hold Sinn Fein responsible for this even
> though the IRA were the bombers as I realise that the members of Sinn
> Fein are not terrorists.
I find it hard to believe that anyone could vote for a party who have actively supported the terrorists who killed two members of their family. It sounds to me like some kind of Stockholme Syndrome.
If Sinn Fein have no links to terrorism, why is it that Sinn Fein are the ones attending the summits for the negotiations? Why are the IRA not there themselves? Why do Sinn Fein take them the proposals to see if they are okay? In short, why does any communication to the IRA have to go through them?
Sinn Fein are at worst actively involed, or at best simple lackeys - runners and 'gophers' - for those holding the guns.
> Yes, some have previous convictions for which they have served their
> time
Good grief, no. Many have them have served little or no time, thanks to our government bowing to pressure and selling out - making the lives of those killed worthless.
> but I would not classify them now as terrorists.
The you are either hideously blinkered or a fool. If they have killed for the IRA, they are terrorists and always will be. If the current peace talks fell through tomorrow, they would no doubt be back out there planning to do it all again.
> I have a member of Sinn Fein living five doors away from
> me who is one of the 5 elected to the Dail and he has no history of
> terrorism nor knows any terrorists.
Maybe not, but of course he wouldn't exactly advertise it if he was, would he?
"Excuse me, do you know any terrorists?"
"Yes, of course I do. Would you like me to introduce you?"
> He is campaigning to keep the Irish culture alive in this country
Nothing wrong with that. Of course, if you try to do that in England you're a racist, but still.
> Amyone who believes a vote for Sinn Fein is a vote for
> terrorism is extremely naive.
Even Martin McGuiness (Sinn Feins education minister, I believe) is a convicted terrorist, who once said "I am a member of the Derry Brigade of Oglaigh na hEireann and am very, very proud of it."
There's only one naive person here.
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