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In his review of Attack of The Clones, Stryke wrote the following and it sums up why a lot of people are feeling negative whilst a lot more are being positive about the new Star Wars movie. I have a feeling this is going to be a long post, so hang in there.
---
Stryke wrote:
I haven't grown up with all the
> expectations of the original trilogy, like some of you. It isn't like
> I'll look at Obi-Wan and say 'That's not Obi-Wan. Ben Kenobi is, like,
> older.' Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi more than Alec Guiness ever
> was, for me. It's a new series of films that a new series of Star Wars
> fans can see.
---
I think this is the major difference between us old fogeys and you kids.
The original was released in '77, I was 4 and it was the first film I ever remember seeing.
And I can't overstate the effect hearing that music and seeing the massive Star Destroyer coming overhead was.
Me and every other person my age in the cinema was slack-jawed.
You're a kid, you play war and cowboys and indians and Action Man.
And on-screen is everything you could possibly want.
There are robots, starships, heroes and villains, princesses to be rescued, the innocent kid off on an adventure and everything else you could ever need from a film.
Single best film ever for me and a lot of other people around my age.
I'm aware that a hell of a lot of people younger than me love Star Wars and it still holds up today.
But to see it in the cinema when you knew nothing about it was fantastic.
To go into school the next day and play Star Wars in playtime, bringing the toys in and having massive intergalactic battles with each other.
And then, 3 years later The Empire Strikes Back.
This was before the boom in home video, once Star Wars left the cinema that was it, never saw it again.
So the next one comes out and you have hundreds of thousands of kids (8 years old I was) bursting to go back in and see what has happened to those characters.
To catch up with Han and Luke, see the droids again, more Darth Vader.
To revisit the world you've been playing in yourself was absolute kid heaven.
And it's pretty much accepted that Empire is the best of the trilogy.
So not only did we get another helping of Star Wars but it was even better.
We learned about Han & Leia taking a liking to each other (urgh, kissing), you saw Luke being trained as a Jedi, Obi-Wan came back to help Luke.
And the daddy of all twists.
Imagine your 8yrs old and your favourite film character finds out that the villain, the most evil person in the galaxy was his dad?
And Han is frozen and taken by Boba Fett?
And Luke is left injured?
It doesn't get any better than that, whether you're 8 or 28.
And in the interim, VHS/Beta was available so we could rent Star Wars and Empire over and over and then Jedi.
The Star Wars trilogy plays a massive part in the childhood of people my age, we grew up with it and saw our friends onscreen having most excellent adventures. A perfect trilogy.
Jedi came out in '83, so I was only 10 when it was all over.
It's not just 3 films in space, it's remembering what you were doing when you saw Star Wars, it's knowing you collected all the toys and spent years in that universe. It's remembering the shock of Vader being Luke's dad and talking about it for months at school.
It's like summers always being warmer when you were a kid - Star Wars is such an integral part of my generation's childhood memories.
And then The Phantom Menace.
Try and imagine what it was like, 17 years after you last visited Luke and Leia, Chewie and Vader to realise you were going to be able to go back again.
It's like you were given a time machine back to being a kid again.
You know it's about what happened before the original, but that's not the point.
This is Star Wars here. This is your best memories of the best times you had as a kid.
I avoided all spoilers before seeing it.
And I felt massively let-down by it.
But why?
It's not a bad film at all, but it's not Star Wars as I know it.
Maybe it's precisely because I had 22 years of memories from first sitting down to hear that music until I sat down again.
The music started and I was stupidly happy and excited. I was going to go back to one of my favourite worlds.
There's the scrawl - this can't be happening again!
There's the ship coming overhead! Jesus H Christ I'm back to being 4!
But there's no explosions. There's 2 blokes standing there talking about Trade Routes being blocked.
What? Star Wars isn't about taxation and trade.
Where are the droids? Where are the Stormtroopers? Where are The Rebels fending off the advancing Imperials?????????
Ok, I know this is set before that happens but can you see my point?
This isn't what I know as Star Wars.
That had a Princess and a farmboy, a roguish Space Pirate with a Wookie.
So we're now an hour into Phantom Menace and I've seen 2 Jedi fight some battle-droids on a ship and land on Tattoine.
Pod Race?
What is this crap?
Star Wars doesn't have a Wacky Races with comedy alien-expression-just-before-he-dies. This blows. Jar-Jar Binks? What??
Star Wars was Luke having his only family murdered whilst he was out getting his droid back.
It was about revenge and hope, fear and triumph. Excitement, adventure, narrow escapes and The Empire trying to blow up entire planets with The Death Star.
It wasn't about a Pod Race and then Gungans fighting droids.
I don't care about Amphibious Lizards fighting machines.
Star Wars had Luke. A normal kid, yearning for excitement and adventure and his parent-figures making him stay home and tend the farm.
That was how every kid felt watching that movie. We wanted to be astronauts and other exciting things, but our parents made us go to school and other boring stuff.
Star Wars allowed us to go on the best adventure of our lives, we were Luke Skywalker desperate for something else, something we would be able to talk about to each other in hushed tones of awe like Luke does when he speaks of The Clone Wars and The Jedi in Kenobi's hovel.
We could identify with him - we wanted the same things.
The Phantom Menace had what? 2 middle-aged Jedi, a stupid-talking Lizard and a brat kid that said "Wizards!".
That's not how you talk about The Jedi. We saw Luke being respectful to Obi-Wan, not some gurning muppet kid.
But is the reason I, and many many others my age felt cheated by The Phantom Menace because it was a bad film, or that it simply did not have the memories and mythical status the original trilogy do?
As Stryke says, to my age, Obi-Wan is this broken old man that lives alone. He is the wisened tutor and friend to Luke, the grandfather that shows him things his parents never could.
When your a kid, the old Kenobi is God.
You listen to what he says and know that he knows everything. He clouded Stormtroopres minds "These are not the droids you are looking for", he sacrificed himself to allow Luke and the gang to escape.
Obi-Wan is not some wooden-speaking, mullet buzz-cut bloke that stood behind Qui-Gon for 85% of the movie when he wasn't waiting on the ship looking stern.
I would like to be able to see into the future, to see if kids that saw The Phantom Menace when they were 4 will grow up revering it as much as my lot do with Star Wars.
I think, however good Attack of The Clones is, it's just not going to be the same.
Maybe it's because the film might not be perfect, but probably because my age group are adults now with lives and bills and stress.
We're not wide-eyed kids accepting everything without question anymore.
My generation is no longer Luke Skywalker:
Fresh faced and eager to seek new adventure without thinking of the dangers.
We're Uncle Owen:
Older and more cynical about life. We know you can't just go off and join the Academy, there are crops to tend and droids to be fixed.
The new movies may be excellent, but us old folks have changed.
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore.
---
Stryke wrote:
I haven't grown up with all the
> expectations of the original trilogy, like some of you. It isn't like
> I'll look at Obi-Wan and say 'That's not Obi-Wan. Ben Kenobi is, like,
> older.' Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi more than Alec Guiness ever
> was, for me. It's a new series of films that a new series of Star Wars
> fans can see.
---
I think this is the major difference between us old fogeys and you kids.
The original was released in '77, I was 4 and it was the first film I ever remember seeing.
And I can't overstate the effect hearing that music and seeing the massive Star Destroyer coming overhead was.
Me and every other person my age in the cinema was slack-jawed.
You're a kid, you play war and cowboys and indians and Action Man.
And on-screen is everything you could possibly want.
There are robots, starships, heroes and villains, princesses to be rescued, the innocent kid off on an adventure and everything else you could ever need from a film.
Single best film ever for me and a lot of other people around my age.
I'm aware that a hell of a lot of people younger than me love Star Wars and it still holds up today.
But to see it in the cinema when you knew nothing about it was fantastic.
To go into school the next day and play Star Wars in playtime, bringing the toys in and having massive intergalactic battles with each other.
And then, 3 years later The Empire Strikes Back.
This was before the boom in home video, once Star Wars left the cinema that was it, never saw it again.
So the next one comes out and you have hundreds of thousands of kids (8 years old I was) bursting to go back in and see what has happened to those characters.
To catch up with Han and Luke, see the droids again, more Darth Vader.
To revisit the world you've been playing in yourself was absolute kid heaven.
And it's pretty much accepted that Empire is the best of the trilogy.
So not only did we get another helping of Star Wars but it was even better.
We learned about Han & Leia taking a liking to each other (urgh, kissing), you saw Luke being trained as a Jedi, Obi-Wan came back to help Luke.
And the daddy of all twists.
Imagine your 8yrs old and your favourite film character finds out that the villain, the most evil person in the galaxy was his dad?
And Han is frozen and taken by Boba Fett?
And Luke is left injured?
It doesn't get any better than that, whether you're 8 or 28.
And in the interim, VHS/Beta was available so we could rent Star Wars and Empire over and over and then Jedi.
The Star Wars trilogy plays a massive part in the childhood of people my age, we grew up with it and saw our friends onscreen having most excellent adventures. A perfect trilogy.
Jedi came out in '83, so I was only 10 when it was all over.
It's not just 3 films in space, it's remembering what you were doing when you saw Star Wars, it's knowing you collected all the toys and spent years in that universe. It's remembering the shock of Vader being Luke's dad and talking about it for months at school.
It's like summers always being warmer when you were a kid - Star Wars is such an integral part of my generation's childhood memories.
And then The Phantom Menace.
Try and imagine what it was like, 17 years after you last visited Luke and Leia, Chewie and Vader to realise you were going to be able to go back again.
It's like you were given a time machine back to being a kid again.
You know it's about what happened before the original, but that's not the point.
This is Star Wars here. This is your best memories of the best times you had as a kid.
I avoided all spoilers before seeing it.
And I felt massively let-down by it.
But why?
It's not a bad film at all, but it's not Star Wars as I know it.
Maybe it's precisely because I had 22 years of memories from first sitting down to hear that music until I sat down again.
The music started and I was stupidly happy and excited. I was going to go back to one of my favourite worlds.
There's the scrawl - this can't be happening again!
There's the ship coming overhead! Jesus H Christ I'm back to being 4!
But there's no explosions. There's 2 blokes standing there talking about Trade Routes being blocked.
What? Star Wars isn't about taxation and trade.
Where are the droids? Where are the Stormtroopers? Where are The Rebels fending off the advancing Imperials?????????
Ok, I know this is set before that happens but can you see my point?
This isn't what I know as Star Wars.
That had a Princess and a farmboy, a roguish Space Pirate with a Wookie.
So we're now an hour into Phantom Menace and I've seen 2 Jedi fight some battle-droids on a ship and land on Tattoine.
Pod Race?
What is this crap?
Star Wars doesn't have a Wacky Races with comedy alien-expression-just-before-he-dies. This blows. Jar-Jar Binks? What??
Star Wars was Luke having his only family murdered whilst he was out getting his droid back.
It was about revenge and hope, fear and triumph. Excitement, adventure, narrow escapes and The Empire trying to blow up entire planets with The Death Star.
It wasn't about a Pod Race and then Gungans fighting droids.
I don't care about Amphibious Lizards fighting machines.
Star Wars had Luke. A normal kid, yearning for excitement and adventure and his parent-figures making him stay home and tend the farm.
That was how every kid felt watching that movie. We wanted to be astronauts and other exciting things, but our parents made us go to school and other boring stuff.
Star Wars allowed us to go on the best adventure of our lives, we were Luke Skywalker desperate for something else, something we would be able to talk about to each other in hushed tones of awe like Luke does when he speaks of The Clone Wars and The Jedi in Kenobi's hovel.
We could identify with him - we wanted the same things.
The Phantom Menace had what? 2 middle-aged Jedi, a stupid-talking Lizard and a brat kid that said "Wizards!".
That's not how you talk about The Jedi. We saw Luke being respectful to Obi-Wan, not some gurning muppet kid.
But is the reason I, and many many others my age felt cheated by The Phantom Menace because it was a bad film, or that it simply did not have the memories and mythical status the original trilogy do?
As Stryke says, to my age, Obi-Wan is this broken old man that lives alone. He is the wisened tutor and friend to Luke, the grandfather that shows him things his parents never could.
When your a kid, the old Kenobi is God.
You listen to what he says and know that he knows everything. He clouded Stormtroopres minds "These are not the droids you are looking for", he sacrificed himself to allow Luke and the gang to escape.
Obi-Wan is not some wooden-speaking, mullet buzz-cut bloke that stood behind Qui-Gon for 85% of the movie when he wasn't waiting on the ship looking stern.
I would like to be able to see into the future, to see if kids that saw The Phantom Menace when they were 4 will grow up revering it as much as my lot do with Star Wars.
I think, however good Attack of The Clones is, it's just not going to be the same.
Maybe it's because the film might not be perfect, but probably because my age group are adults now with lives and bills and stress.
We're not wide-eyed kids accepting everything without question anymore.
My generation is no longer Luke Skywalker:
Fresh faced and eager to seek new adventure without thinking of the dangers.
We're Uncle Owen:
Older and more cynical about life. We know you can't just go off and join the Academy, there are crops to tend and droids to be fixed.
The new movies may be excellent, but us old folks have changed.
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore.
I think that Lucas played his strongest characters in the original trilogy, then realised that he should have stuck with calling episodes 4, 5 and 6 as 1, 2 and 3. Obviously, his intention was to start in the middle, because that required less effort - he did not need to 'set up' the situation or the storyline, because calling the film Episode 4 made it clear that events had taken place *before* the film that set this all rolling.
I enjoyed Episodes 1 and 2 because I prefer eye-candy to substance. Strange but true. With the obvious exception of Jar Jar Binks, who should have died much earlier.
The problem is, if Lucas had made Anakin more Solo-esque, and Amidala more like a Leia, people would have said that he was simply regurgitating the old films. You old-timers were young when 4 5 and 6 were released. Films have a much heavier impact on young people than on cynical older people. You said it yourself, Goatboy. While I saw TPM at age 14, I was still stunned by the quality of the effects, if not by the story.
I was listening to an interview with G Lucas on Radio 4. He claimed that he was looking forwards to the time when a kid, seeing the films for the first time, would watch them in numerical order (obviously making the asumption that the kid understood trade disputes etc). I can understand this. Star Wars is much more than a quick insight in to the lives of Luke, Leia and Han. It is more of an epic, charting the entire life of Anakin/Vader in a mythical sense, showing his fall from grace and his eventual redemption.
Although Jar Jar was a mistake. No doubts about that.
I enjoyed Episodes 1 and 2 because I prefer eye-candy to substance. Strange but true. With the obvious exception of Jar Jar Binks, who should have died much earlier.
The problem is, if Lucas had made Anakin more Solo-esque, and Amidala more like a Leia, people would have said that he was simply regurgitating the old films. You old-timers were young when 4 5 and 6 were released. Films have a much heavier impact on young people than on cynical older people. You said it yourself, Goatboy. While I saw TPM at age 14, I was still stunned by the quality of the effects, if not by the story.
I was listening to an interview with G Lucas on Radio 4. He claimed that he was looking forwards to the time when a kid, seeing the films for the first time, would watch them in numerical order (obviously making the asumption that the kid understood trade disputes etc). I can understand this. Star Wars is much more than a quick insight in to the lives of Luke, Leia and Han. It is more of an epic, charting the entire life of Anakin/Vader in a mythical sense, showing his fall from grace and his eventual redemption.
Although Jar Jar was a mistake. No doubts about that.
"The classic decleration of love in Empire
Leia "I love you"
Han "I know"
Actually, Han's response was meant to be "I love you too", but Fisher kept messing up her lines (she was on drugs at the time, she admitted that) and everyone on set was totally fed up with doing retake after retake, so Lucas told Harrison to just run with it, whatever she said, he would reply to in character.
If you watch the bit where Leia is being held by Han, and she says "Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited" you can see him wording the lines to her, because she kept messing them up in that scene too
Leia "I love you"
Han "I know"
Actually, Han's response was meant to be "I love you too", but Fisher kept messing up her lines (she was on drugs at the time, she admitted that) and everyone on set was totally fed up with doing retake after retake, so Lucas told Harrison to just run with it, whatever she said, he would reply to in character.
If you watch the bit where Leia is being held by Han, and she says "Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited" you can see him wording the lines to her, because she kept messing them up in that scene too
Now, you see that's another point. Every line in the original Star Wars Trilogy was quotable, because it was classic. The way those scripts were written you'd have thought that Lucas had sat down and thought for a long time about exactly what these characters would say. With the Phantom Menace it's like he's just had to fill in the gaps in the speech.
Anyway, Goatboy, if you don't get a GAD for this I would be really surprised. Well written and I agreed with every word you said, Star Wars to us is Obi, Luke and all the things that the Originals were. How can you go back and expect to top it when we already have a set idea of what it should be?
To you, your childhood is full of things you remember fondly, whether they are as good as you remember or not is beside the point. Still, watching Star Wars again on video after watching the Phantom Menace still makes me think that the actual story itself is so much better thought out in A New Hope, whatever age you are.
Anyway, Goatboy, if you don't get a GAD for this I would be really surprised. Well written and I agreed with every word you said, Star Wars to us is Obi, Luke and all the things that the Originals were. How can you go back and expect to top it when we already have a set idea of what it should be?
To you, your childhood is full of things you remember fondly, whether they are as good as you remember or not is beside the point. Still, watching Star Wars again on video after watching the Phantom Menace still makes me think that the actual story itself is so much better thought out in A New Hope, whatever age you are.
I'm old. Stars Wars back in those days was a big deal but somehow I liked it a lot without adoring it. For that reason I think my response to the phantom menace was relatively sane. It felt like a bad movie not because of hype overload or over-ripe expectations. It felt like a bad movie becasue it was bad and boring.
Attack of the clones felt a whole lot better. It's a better movie but that's not the only thing. It's a better star wars movie as well.
It's probably even one of the best star wars movie's as long as no one is speaking. The dialogue is awful but the action is superb. Let's see how it lasts in the mind.
Attack of the clones felt a whole lot better. It's a better movie but that's not the only thing. It's a better star wars movie as well.
It's probably even one of the best star wars movie's as long as no one is speaking. The dialogue is awful but the action is superb. Let's see how it lasts in the mind.
I agree 100%.
Star Wars, Empire & Jedi belong to my childhood.
Wheras Phantom Menace, Attack and the next one are for those that haven't grown up with the originals.
I sat there thinking "I'm not excited by this. I don't care about these people, I know how this all ends. Where is the stuff that made the originals so special?", but someone new to them doesn't carry that baggage of expectation - so they can just sit back and get lost in the world.
Monkey Man made a good point about the romance - Leia was a Princess and Han was a Pirate. There was danger and excitement, they loved each other but wouldn't let it each see that.
The classic decleration of love in Empire
Leia "I love you"
Han "I know"
Not a sulky teen Jedi who's man-boss won't let him snog a girl. The thing about Phantom and probably this one, is the characters were so flat and defined.
Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon are good.
Darth Maul & Sidious are bad.
Nobody in between.
But you had Han Solo:
Surly, didn't like Luke and Ben, refused to even consider saving the princess until a reward was offered. Us kids could identify with Luke, and adults could enjoy Han's sarcasm and flippant attitude.
There was something for everyone there.
Phantom was just a big colourful kid's movie. And there's nothing wrong with that, I did enjoy it as a seperate entity. But, purely because of the originals, it just felt stale to me.
There wasn't a whole lot for adults to take away from it.
A central character of a little kid. Bah.
Jedi that did nothing but defend themselves.
Jedi you had Skywalker going into Jabba's Palace to get his friend back.
He was mean and moody "Release my friends and no harm will come to you".
Jedis were not to be trifled with.
Again, for a kid, this was heaven. There's Luke, Mr Everyman. And he's come for his friend and he's going to kick some serious face-off if he doesn't get what he wants.
We saw how badass the Jedi were in Empire, Yoda could do anything he wanted to. This is Luke/Us standing in front of one of the most villainous characters we'd ever seen. This was Jabba, he took Han and is keeping him for a trophy.
This is someone standing up to a bully, this is everything we ever wanted to do as a kid.
Phantom Menace had a kid being taken away from home by grumpy-faced Jedi, a Gungan battle and no sense of adventure or empathy with them.
When they're being chased by that big fish thing in the submersible, the reactions of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon is just
"Oh look,a big fish is there. Ah well, onto the next location"
But in Empire you had Luke being held by the snow-monster, he almost died.
You had Leia and Han etc landing on the asteroid that was a big thing's gut and they were scared.
You had Han and Chewie being tossed to the Sarlaac and Han was scared.
You had Luke being almost eaten by the Rancor, he narrowly avoided death and was shaken by it.
These characters were in constant danger from everything and everyone.
But Phantom just had them standing around going "Midichlorians".
The only time there was any sense of "Watch out!" was the Darth Maul battle.
Er...I've gone off track here a bit.
Yes The Phantom Menace was good, purely because it was Star Wars after 17 years for me and most of my generation.
But my next door neighbours kids are 8 and 9, and they loved it. They've never ever seen the originals so they have nothing to compare it to.
If I ever have kids, I know I'll have all 6 movies on DVD and I'll sit them down and say "Here you are" and introduce them to the saga.
But will I start with The Phantom Menace and let it run in order?
No, I'll start with Episode 4 and show it in the order I've seen them in.
Otherwise there will be no surprises left for them by the time they get to Star Wars:A New Hope.
Think about it, you have already seen Phantom and Attack and Episode 3.
So Star Wars starts and you see Luke.
You think "That's Annakin's kid and he's been left with his folks because Obi-Wan split them up to prevent them being corrupted"
You see Darth Vader and say "That's Annakin, boy does Luke have a surprised in store".
You see Luke meet Obi-Wan and think "Hah, Luke doesn't know that his father and Obi-Wan fought and that Obi-Wan really knows all about everything. Why, in Episode 3 he hid Luke and Leia".
Empire Strikes Back holds no surprise when Vader reveals the truth, there is no "NO WAY!!!!" moment when Luke hears "I am your father".
I think seeing the whole Star Wars saga, starting with Episode 1 and running through in order will ruin those films.
You need to be oblivious to the story to appreciate 4, 5 and 6.
And yes, Phantom and Attack belong to a younger generation.
Purely because the original movies hold nothing like the surprise and impact they had when I first saw them.
For me, that's a shame.
I'll enjoy Attack of The Clones, I have no doubt of that, but I have the urge to go watch the 1st three just to revisit those worlds and my childhood.
Star Wars, Empire & Jedi belong to my childhood.
Wheras Phantom Menace, Attack and the next one are for those that haven't grown up with the originals.
I sat there thinking "I'm not excited by this. I don't care about these people, I know how this all ends. Where is the stuff that made the originals so special?", but someone new to them doesn't carry that baggage of expectation - so they can just sit back and get lost in the world.
Monkey Man made a good point about the romance - Leia was a Princess and Han was a Pirate. There was danger and excitement, they loved each other but wouldn't let it each see that.
The classic decleration of love in Empire
Leia "I love you"
Han "I know"
Not a sulky teen Jedi who's man-boss won't let him snog a girl. The thing about Phantom and probably this one, is the characters were so flat and defined.
Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon are good.
Darth Maul & Sidious are bad.
Nobody in between.
But you had Han Solo:
Surly, didn't like Luke and Ben, refused to even consider saving the princess until a reward was offered. Us kids could identify with Luke, and adults could enjoy Han's sarcasm and flippant attitude.
There was something for everyone there.
Phantom was just a big colourful kid's movie. And there's nothing wrong with that, I did enjoy it as a seperate entity. But, purely because of the originals, it just felt stale to me.
There wasn't a whole lot for adults to take away from it.
A central character of a little kid. Bah.
Jedi that did nothing but defend themselves.
Jedi you had Skywalker going into Jabba's Palace to get his friend back.
He was mean and moody "Release my friends and no harm will come to you".
Jedis were not to be trifled with.
Again, for a kid, this was heaven. There's Luke, Mr Everyman. And he's come for his friend and he's going to kick some serious face-off if he doesn't get what he wants.
We saw how badass the Jedi were in Empire, Yoda could do anything he wanted to. This is Luke/Us standing in front of one of the most villainous characters we'd ever seen. This was Jabba, he took Han and is keeping him for a trophy.
This is someone standing up to a bully, this is everything we ever wanted to do as a kid.
Phantom Menace had a kid being taken away from home by grumpy-faced Jedi, a Gungan battle and no sense of adventure or empathy with them.
When they're being chased by that big fish thing in the submersible, the reactions of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon is just
"Oh look,a big fish is there. Ah well, onto the next location"
But in Empire you had Luke being held by the snow-monster, he almost died.
You had Leia and Han etc landing on the asteroid that was a big thing's gut and they were scared.
You had Han and Chewie being tossed to the Sarlaac and Han was scared.
You had Luke being almost eaten by the Rancor, he narrowly avoided death and was shaken by it.
These characters were in constant danger from everything and everyone.
But Phantom just had them standing around going "Midichlorians".
The only time there was any sense of "Watch out!" was the Darth Maul battle.
Er...I've gone off track here a bit.
Yes The Phantom Menace was good, purely because it was Star Wars after 17 years for me and most of my generation.
But my next door neighbours kids are 8 and 9, and they loved it. They've never ever seen the originals so they have nothing to compare it to.
If I ever have kids, I know I'll have all 6 movies on DVD and I'll sit them down and say "Here you are" and introduce them to the saga.
But will I start with The Phantom Menace and let it run in order?
No, I'll start with Episode 4 and show it in the order I've seen them in.
Otherwise there will be no surprises left for them by the time they get to Star Wars:A New Hope.
Think about it, you have already seen Phantom and Attack and Episode 3.
So Star Wars starts and you see Luke.
You think "That's Annakin's kid and he's been left with his folks because Obi-Wan split them up to prevent them being corrupted"
You see Darth Vader and say "That's Annakin, boy does Luke have a surprised in store".
You see Luke meet Obi-Wan and think "Hah, Luke doesn't know that his father and Obi-Wan fought and that Obi-Wan really knows all about everything. Why, in Episode 3 he hid Luke and Leia".
Empire Strikes Back holds no surprise when Vader reveals the truth, there is no "NO WAY!!!!" moment when Luke hears "I am your father".
I think seeing the whole Star Wars saga, starting with Episode 1 and running through in order will ruin those films.
You need to be oblivious to the story to appreciate 4, 5 and 6.
And yes, Phantom and Attack belong to a younger generation.
Purely because the original movies hold nothing like the surprise and impact they had when I first saw them.
For me, that's a shame.
I'll enjoy Attack of The Clones, I have no doubt of that, but I have the urge to go watch the 1st three just to revisit those worlds and my childhood.
Goatboy wrote:
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore
--
To you. I agree with your post, and I'd probably be saying the same time in 15 years if a new trilogy came out. But they ARE Star Wars. To me. You have your Star Wars. I have mine. Both are excellent.
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore
--
To you. I agree with your post, and I'd probably be saying the same time in 15 years if a new trilogy came out. But they ARE Star Wars. To me. You have your Star Wars. I have mine. Both are excellent.
Nice one. It does feel like Lucas has abandoned his diehard fans and tried to reach a new audience, which isn't always a bad thing. Except for the diehard fans who feel let down.
There's something I wanted to write in my review that I might as well write here - about the love story. Star Wars has already had a big love story - Han and Leia. Anakin and Padme is flawed in comparison, because they are already suited. Anakin being the noble Jedi and Padme being the ex-Queen/Senator lady. There's absolutely no risk there because no-one would frown upon it. Han and Leia, on the other hand, were total opposites. He was the scumbucket from downtown and she was the leader of the rebel resistance. Talk about a match made in hell! But that made some of the charm - seeing them play off each other and then get it on! They continuously lose each other in space, but always end up back toether again - a good love story. Now we get some pap about Anakin not being allowed a girlfriend because his male 'companion' won't let him have one! What a wuss!
There's something I wanted to write in my review that I might as well write here - about the love story. Star Wars has already had a big love story - Han and Leia. Anakin and Padme is flawed in comparison, because they are already suited. Anakin being the noble Jedi and Padme being the ex-Queen/Senator lady. There's absolutely no risk there because no-one would frown upon it. Han and Leia, on the other hand, were total opposites. He was the scumbucket from downtown and she was the leader of the rebel resistance. Talk about a match made in hell! But that made some of the charm - seeing them play off each other and then get it on! They continuously lose each other in space, but always end up back toether again - a good love story. Now we get some pap about Anakin not being allowed a girlfriend because his male 'companion' won't let him have one! What a wuss!
In his review of Attack of The Clones, Stryke wrote the following and it sums up why a lot of people are feeling negative whilst a lot more are being positive about the new Star Wars movie. I have a feeling this is going to be a long post, so hang in there.
---
Stryke wrote:
I haven't grown up with all the
> expectations of the original trilogy, like some of you. It isn't like
> I'll look at Obi-Wan and say 'That's not Obi-Wan. Ben Kenobi is, like,
> older.' Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi more than Alec Guiness ever
> was, for me. It's a new series of films that a new series of Star Wars
> fans can see.
---
I think this is the major difference between us old fogeys and you kids.
The original was released in '77, I was 4 and it was the first film I ever remember seeing.
And I can't overstate the effect hearing that music and seeing the massive Star Destroyer coming overhead was.
Me and every other person my age in the cinema was slack-jawed.
You're a kid, you play war and cowboys and indians and Action Man.
And on-screen is everything you could possibly want.
There are robots, starships, heroes and villains, princesses to be rescued, the innocent kid off on an adventure and everything else you could ever need from a film.
Single best film ever for me and a lot of other people around my age.
I'm aware that a hell of a lot of people younger than me love Star Wars and it still holds up today.
But to see it in the cinema when you knew nothing about it was fantastic.
To go into school the next day and play Star Wars in playtime, bringing the toys in and having massive intergalactic battles with each other.
And then, 3 years later The Empire Strikes Back.
This was before the boom in home video, once Star Wars left the cinema that was it, never saw it again.
So the next one comes out and you have hundreds of thousands of kids (8 years old I was) bursting to go back in and see what has happened to those characters.
To catch up with Han and Luke, see the droids again, more Darth Vader.
To revisit the world you've been playing in yourself was absolute kid heaven.
And it's pretty much accepted that Empire is the best of the trilogy.
So not only did we get another helping of Star Wars but it was even better.
We learned about Han & Leia taking a liking to each other (urgh, kissing), you saw Luke being trained as a Jedi, Obi-Wan came back to help Luke.
And the daddy of all twists.
Imagine your 8yrs old and your favourite film character finds out that the villain, the most evil person in the galaxy was his dad?
And Han is frozen and taken by Boba Fett?
And Luke is left injured?
It doesn't get any better than that, whether you're 8 or 28.
And in the interim, VHS/Beta was available so we could rent Star Wars and Empire over and over and then Jedi.
The Star Wars trilogy plays a massive part in the childhood of people my age, we grew up with it and saw our friends onscreen having most excellent adventures. A perfect trilogy.
Jedi came out in '83, so I was only 10 when it was all over.
It's not just 3 films in space, it's remembering what you were doing when you saw Star Wars, it's knowing you collected all the toys and spent years in that universe. It's remembering the shock of Vader being Luke's dad and talking about it for months at school.
It's like summers always being warmer when you were a kid - Star Wars is such an integral part of my generation's childhood memories.
And then The Phantom Menace.
Try and imagine what it was like, 17 years after you last visited Luke and Leia, Chewie and Vader to realise you were going to be able to go back again.
It's like you were given a time machine back to being a kid again.
You know it's about what happened before the original, but that's not the point.
This is Star Wars here. This is your best memories of the best times you had as a kid.
I avoided all spoilers before seeing it.
And I felt massively let-down by it.
But why?
It's not a bad film at all, but it's not Star Wars as I know it.
Maybe it's precisely because I had 22 years of memories from first sitting down to hear that music until I sat down again.
The music started and I was stupidly happy and excited. I was going to go back to one of my favourite worlds.
There's the scrawl - this can't be happening again!
There's the ship coming overhead! Jesus H Christ I'm back to being 4!
But there's no explosions. There's 2 blokes standing there talking about Trade Routes being blocked.
What? Star Wars isn't about taxation and trade.
Where are the droids? Where are the Stormtroopers? Where are The Rebels fending off the advancing Imperials?????????
Ok, I know this is set before that happens but can you see my point?
This isn't what I know as Star Wars.
That had a Princess and a farmboy, a roguish Space Pirate with a Wookie.
So we're now an hour into Phantom Menace and I've seen 2 Jedi fight some battle-droids on a ship and land on Tattoine.
Pod Race?
What is this crap?
Star Wars doesn't have a Wacky Races with comedy alien-expression-just-before-he-dies. This blows. Jar-Jar Binks? What??
Star Wars was Luke having his only family murdered whilst he was out getting his droid back.
It was about revenge and hope, fear and triumph. Excitement, adventure, narrow escapes and The Empire trying to blow up entire planets with The Death Star.
It wasn't about a Pod Race and then Gungans fighting droids.
I don't care about Amphibious Lizards fighting machines.
Star Wars had Luke. A normal kid, yearning for excitement and adventure and his parent-figures making him stay home and tend the farm.
That was how every kid felt watching that movie. We wanted to be astronauts and other exciting things, but our parents made us go to school and other boring stuff.
Star Wars allowed us to go on the best adventure of our lives, we were Luke Skywalker desperate for something else, something we would be able to talk about to each other in hushed tones of awe like Luke does when he speaks of The Clone Wars and The Jedi in Kenobi's hovel.
We could identify with him - we wanted the same things.
The Phantom Menace had what? 2 middle-aged Jedi, a stupid-talking Lizard and a brat kid that said "Wizards!".
That's not how you talk about The Jedi. We saw Luke being respectful to Obi-Wan, not some gurning muppet kid.
But is the reason I, and many many others my age felt cheated by The Phantom Menace because it was a bad film, or that it simply did not have the memories and mythical status the original trilogy do?
As Stryke says, to my age, Obi-Wan is this broken old man that lives alone. He is the wisened tutor and friend to Luke, the grandfather that shows him things his parents never could.
When your a kid, the old Kenobi is God.
You listen to what he says and know that he knows everything. He clouded Stormtroopres minds "These are not the droids you are looking for", he sacrificed himself to allow Luke and the gang to escape.
Obi-Wan is not some wooden-speaking, mullet buzz-cut bloke that stood behind Qui-Gon for 85% of the movie when he wasn't waiting on the ship looking stern.
I would like to be able to see into the future, to see if kids that saw The Phantom Menace when they were 4 will grow up revering it as much as my lot do with Star Wars.
I think, however good Attack of The Clones is, it's just not going to be the same.
Maybe it's because the film might not be perfect, but probably because my age group are adults now with lives and bills and stress.
We're not wide-eyed kids accepting everything without question anymore.
My generation is no longer Luke Skywalker:
Fresh faced and eager to seek new adventure without thinking of the dangers.
We're Uncle Owen:
Older and more cynical about life. We know you can't just go off and join the Academy, there are crops to tend and droids to be fixed.
The new movies may be excellent, but us old folks have changed.
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore.
---
Stryke wrote:
I haven't grown up with all the
> expectations of the original trilogy, like some of you. It isn't like
> I'll look at Obi-Wan and say 'That's not Obi-Wan. Ben Kenobi is, like,
> older.' Ewan McGregor is Obi-Wan Kenobi more than Alec Guiness ever
> was, for me. It's a new series of films that a new series of Star Wars
> fans can see.
---
I think this is the major difference between us old fogeys and you kids.
The original was released in '77, I was 4 and it was the first film I ever remember seeing.
And I can't overstate the effect hearing that music and seeing the massive Star Destroyer coming overhead was.
Me and every other person my age in the cinema was slack-jawed.
You're a kid, you play war and cowboys and indians and Action Man.
And on-screen is everything you could possibly want.
There are robots, starships, heroes and villains, princesses to be rescued, the innocent kid off on an adventure and everything else you could ever need from a film.
Single best film ever for me and a lot of other people around my age.
I'm aware that a hell of a lot of people younger than me love Star Wars and it still holds up today.
But to see it in the cinema when you knew nothing about it was fantastic.
To go into school the next day and play Star Wars in playtime, bringing the toys in and having massive intergalactic battles with each other.
And then, 3 years later The Empire Strikes Back.
This was before the boom in home video, once Star Wars left the cinema that was it, never saw it again.
So the next one comes out and you have hundreds of thousands of kids (8 years old I was) bursting to go back in and see what has happened to those characters.
To catch up with Han and Luke, see the droids again, more Darth Vader.
To revisit the world you've been playing in yourself was absolute kid heaven.
And it's pretty much accepted that Empire is the best of the trilogy.
So not only did we get another helping of Star Wars but it was even better.
We learned about Han & Leia taking a liking to each other (urgh, kissing), you saw Luke being trained as a Jedi, Obi-Wan came back to help Luke.
And the daddy of all twists.
Imagine your 8yrs old and your favourite film character finds out that the villain, the most evil person in the galaxy was his dad?
And Han is frozen and taken by Boba Fett?
And Luke is left injured?
It doesn't get any better than that, whether you're 8 or 28.
And in the interim, VHS/Beta was available so we could rent Star Wars and Empire over and over and then Jedi.
The Star Wars trilogy plays a massive part in the childhood of people my age, we grew up with it and saw our friends onscreen having most excellent adventures. A perfect trilogy.
Jedi came out in '83, so I was only 10 when it was all over.
It's not just 3 films in space, it's remembering what you were doing when you saw Star Wars, it's knowing you collected all the toys and spent years in that universe. It's remembering the shock of Vader being Luke's dad and talking about it for months at school.
It's like summers always being warmer when you were a kid - Star Wars is such an integral part of my generation's childhood memories.
And then The Phantom Menace.
Try and imagine what it was like, 17 years after you last visited Luke and Leia, Chewie and Vader to realise you were going to be able to go back again.
It's like you were given a time machine back to being a kid again.
You know it's about what happened before the original, but that's not the point.
This is Star Wars here. This is your best memories of the best times you had as a kid.
I avoided all spoilers before seeing it.
And I felt massively let-down by it.
But why?
It's not a bad film at all, but it's not Star Wars as I know it.
Maybe it's precisely because I had 22 years of memories from first sitting down to hear that music until I sat down again.
The music started and I was stupidly happy and excited. I was going to go back to one of my favourite worlds.
There's the scrawl - this can't be happening again!
There's the ship coming overhead! Jesus H Christ I'm back to being 4!
But there's no explosions. There's 2 blokes standing there talking about Trade Routes being blocked.
What? Star Wars isn't about taxation and trade.
Where are the droids? Where are the Stormtroopers? Where are The Rebels fending off the advancing Imperials?????????
Ok, I know this is set before that happens but can you see my point?
This isn't what I know as Star Wars.
That had a Princess and a farmboy, a roguish Space Pirate with a Wookie.
So we're now an hour into Phantom Menace and I've seen 2 Jedi fight some battle-droids on a ship and land on Tattoine.
Pod Race?
What is this crap?
Star Wars doesn't have a Wacky Races with comedy alien-expression-just-before-he-dies. This blows. Jar-Jar Binks? What??
Star Wars was Luke having his only family murdered whilst he was out getting his droid back.
It was about revenge and hope, fear and triumph. Excitement, adventure, narrow escapes and The Empire trying to blow up entire planets with The Death Star.
It wasn't about a Pod Race and then Gungans fighting droids.
I don't care about Amphibious Lizards fighting machines.
Star Wars had Luke. A normal kid, yearning for excitement and adventure and his parent-figures making him stay home and tend the farm.
That was how every kid felt watching that movie. We wanted to be astronauts and other exciting things, but our parents made us go to school and other boring stuff.
Star Wars allowed us to go on the best adventure of our lives, we were Luke Skywalker desperate for something else, something we would be able to talk about to each other in hushed tones of awe like Luke does when he speaks of The Clone Wars and The Jedi in Kenobi's hovel.
We could identify with him - we wanted the same things.
The Phantom Menace had what? 2 middle-aged Jedi, a stupid-talking Lizard and a brat kid that said "Wizards!".
That's not how you talk about The Jedi. We saw Luke being respectful to Obi-Wan, not some gurning muppet kid.
But is the reason I, and many many others my age felt cheated by The Phantom Menace because it was a bad film, or that it simply did not have the memories and mythical status the original trilogy do?
As Stryke says, to my age, Obi-Wan is this broken old man that lives alone. He is the wisened tutor and friend to Luke, the grandfather that shows him things his parents never could.
When your a kid, the old Kenobi is God.
You listen to what he says and know that he knows everything. He clouded Stormtroopres minds "These are not the droids you are looking for", he sacrificed himself to allow Luke and the gang to escape.
Obi-Wan is not some wooden-speaking, mullet buzz-cut bloke that stood behind Qui-Gon for 85% of the movie when he wasn't waiting on the ship looking stern.
I would like to be able to see into the future, to see if kids that saw The Phantom Menace when they were 4 will grow up revering it as much as my lot do with Star Wars.
I think, however good Attack of The Clones is, it's just not going to be the same.
Maybe it's because the film might not be perfect, but probably because my age group are adults now with lives and bills and stress.
We're not wide-eyed kids accepting everything without question anymore.
My generation is no longer Luke Skywalker:
Fresh faced and eager to seek new adventure without thinking of the dangers.
We're Uncle Owen:
Older and more cynical about life. We know you can't just go off and join the Academy, there are crops to tend and droids to be fixed.
The new movies may be excellent, but us old folks have changed.
However good they are, they just ain't Star Wars anymore.