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I'm not adverse to challenge.
I proudly beat Goldeneye through 00 Agent.
I'm happy to say that I've beaten all the cups on F-Zero X.
It took me over 60 hours of play but I finished Perfect Dark on Perfect Agent.
I'm also looking forward to the supposedly "incredibly fustrating" Monkey Ball on the Gamecube.
For me, challenge is half the longevity of a game (size being the other half).
Some games are big (like Zelda and Donkey Kong 64), but fairly easy going and not really challenging.
They last me, but not half as long as a real challenge.
There is one sort of challenge I really don't like, and unfortunately, it's the easiest, laziest sort of challenge a develloper can stick in:
A time limit.
Now don't get me wrong, a time limit is perfectly acceptable in certain situations, like a racing game or when trying to escape an exploding building or other set piece like that.
But even when used properly, rushing for time limit is the sort of challenge I like least.
I don't enjoy trying to beat other people's "Perfect" lap times in F-Zero or Mario Kart - it's fun racing them in person, where you can compete head to head - it's just toning skills to get the perfect time is pretty dull AS WELL as fustratingly difficult.
And that's when it's used in the most correct way...
Let me tell you about Blast Corps.
That was a game where the time limit was fine. Why?
Because it was done in an interesting imaginative way.
Instead of some stupid clock timer in the corner, you had a slowly moving missile carrier going in a path that you had to clear. And seeing as this time limit was the only challenge you had to worry about, it wasn't such a pain.
Once I'd finished the game and it offered the option to go for Platinum medals by finishing the levels in perfect "times", I really couldn't be bothered.
Instead of frantically trying to smash a path for an advancing missile carrier, desperately making up for little mistakes, I'd have to go through the most perfect efficient route, getting turns perfect to every degree and start again if I made the slightest mistake.
It was unexciting to say the least...
Perfect Dark.
Getting through Perfect Agent was a satisfyingly hard experience. Combining skill and tactics to fight through almost impossible missions was fantastic.
It took every trick in the book, from sniping, sneaking, to making a noise with a weapon and letting the guards sprawl round the corner in to be mowed down by a waiting crosshair.
Having to rush through to beat a time limit wouldn't have been fun. You can't run and aim.
If you run through it, there's no way you're going to get the head shots you need to take down guards quickly without wasting too much ammo. I didn't care for trying to unlock cheats.
Likewise, the "Carrington Defense" Mission where it had you running to a small time limit, having to take out heavily shielded guards without aiming properly was a generally a pain to complete.
I didn't like that mission.
Now I find that Pikmin only gives you 12 minutes to do your daily task.
It wasn't the sort of challenge I was hoping for.
I wanted to be challenged by using the Pikmin's abilities to solve interesting puzzles, not run them around like headless chickens losing most of them in clumsily the race to beat the time limit.
Why can't challenges be based around using your abilities and wits at YOUR pace.
That's one reason why Metal Gear Solid is so great.
You get to mess and toy with unsuspecting guards, using all the time you need to do what you want to them.
And the challenge could be extended to more complex situations for you to deal with where using your wits and skills becomes more interesting and challenging.
Doing things at your own pace so you have time to breath and think about what you're doing, staying in control and in command of the situation, instead of getting stressed over a stupid little clock in the corner of the screen.
I want to play games at my pace and do things my way instead of being rushed down a "pre determined route", simply doing the route as "perfectly" as possible.
Challenges are great, but does that really have to mean rushing, losing full control of the situation and relying on luck as much as skill to get by?
I proudly beat Goldeneye through 00 Agent.
I'm happy to say that I've beaten all the cups on F-Zero X.
It took me over 60 hours of play but I finished Perfect Dark on Perfect Agent.
I'm also looking forward to the supposedly "incredibly fustrating" Monkey Ball on the Gamecube.
For me, challenge is half the longevity of a game (size being the other half).
Some games are big (like Zelda and Donkey Kong 64), but fairly easy going and not really challenging.
They last me, but not half as long as a real challenge.
There is one sort of challenge I really don't like, and unfortunately, it's the easiest, laziest sort of challenge a develloper can stick in:
A time limit.
Now don't get me wrong, a time limit is perfectly acceptable in certain situations, like a racing game or when trying to escape an exploding building or other set piece like that.
But even when used properly, rushing for time limit is the sort of challenge I like least.
I don't enjoy trying to beat other people's "Perfect" lap times in F-Zero or Mario Kart - it's fun racing them in person, where you can compete head to head - it's just toning skills to get the perfect time is pretty dull AS WELL as fustratingly difficult.
And that's when it's used in the most correct way...
Let me tell you about Blast Corps.
That was a game where the time limit was fine. Why?
Because it was done in an interesting imaginative way.
Instead of some stupid clock timer in the corner, you had a slowly moving missile carrier going in a path that you had to clear. And seeing as this time limit was the only challenge you had to worry about, it wasn't such a pain.
Once I'd finished the game and it offered the option to go for Platinum medals by finishing the levels in perfect "times", I really couldn't be bothered.
Instead of frantically trying to smash a path for an advancing missile carrier, desperately making up for little mistakes, I'd have to go through the most perfect efficient route, getting turns perfect to every degree and start again if I made the slightest mistake.
It was unexciting to say the least...
Perfect Dark.
Getting through Perfect Agent was a satisfyingly hard experience. Combining skill and tactics to fight through almost impossible missions was fantastic.
It took every trick in the book, from sniping, sneaking, to making a noise with a weapon and letting the guards sprawl round the corner in to be mowed down by a waiting crosshair.
Having to rush through to beat a time limit wouldn't have been fun. You can't run and aim.
If you run through it, there's no way you're going to get the head shots you need to take down guards quickly without wasting too much ammo. I didn't care for trying to unlock cheats.
Likewise, the "Carrington Defense" Mission where it had you running to a small time limit, having to take out heavily shielded guards without aiming properly was a generally a pain to complete.
I didn't like that mission.
Now I find that Pikmin only gives you 12 minutes to do your daily task.
It wasn't the sort of challenge I was hoping for.
I wanted to be challenged by using the Pikmin's abilities to solve interesting puzzles, not run them around like headless chickens losing most of them in clumsily the race to beat the time limit.
Why can't challenges be based around using your abilities and wits at YOUR pace.
That's one reason why Metal Gear Solid is so great.
You get to mess and toy with unsuspecting guards, using all the time you need to do what you want to them.
And the challenge could be extended to more complex situations for you to deal with where using your wits and skills becomes more interesting and challenging.
Doing things at your own pace so you have time to breath and think about what you're doing, staying in control and in command of the situation, instead of getting stressed over a stupid little clock in the corner of the screen.
I want to play games at my pace and do things my way instead of being rushed down a "pre determined route", simply doing the route as "perfectly" as possible.
Challenges are great, but does that really have to mean rushing, losing full control of the situation and relying on luck as much as skill to get by?
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GrimMetal wrote:
> Strfex, if Pikmin didn't have a time limit on its days the idea of the
> game would be flawed. Get 30 ship parts in 30 days. If it was Get 30
> ship parts full stop you really would find it to be an 8 hour game.
> However, by including the time limit you will have to play through the
> game 2 or 3 times to complete it full, making it a 19 hour+ game. If
> you use the guides and these "practise days" it is going to
> be a short game now isn't it...
I know that it keeps a challenge, but it's not the sort of challenge I want.
Pikmin isn't the sort of game I want to have to rush through.
I want to be able to stop and think and take all the time in the world to solve puzzles and using my Pikmin cleverly instead of trying to rush them from A to B.
Instead of making a small game challenging in an annoying way, why couldn't they have made the game harder in an interesting way like a bigger game with harder puzzles without the pesky time limit.
> Strfex, if Pikmin didn't have a time limit on its days the idea of the
> game would be flawed. Get 30 ship parts in 30 days. If it was Get 30
> ship parts full stop you really would find it to be an 8 hour game.
> However, by including the time limit you will have to play through the
> game 2 or 3 times to complete it full, making it a 19 hour+ game. If
> you use the guides and these "practise days" it is going to
> be a short game now isn't it...
I know that it keeps a challenge, but it's not the sort of challenge I want.
Pikmin isn't the sort of game I want to have to rush through.
I want to be able to stop and think and take all the time in the world to solve puzzles and using my Pikmin cleverly instead of trying to rush them from A to B.
Instead of making a small game challenging in an annoying way, why couldn't they have made the game harder in an interesting way like a bigger game with harder puzzles without the pesky time limit.
Your Honour wrote:
> Good post.
>
> I think that an absense of time limits is good in some games. It works
> really well in Amped for example. In most snowboarding games, such as
> 1080, you have to finish the course within a certain amount of time.
>
> No so with Amped. It's all about the tricks you do. So you have no
> time limit in the game. The slopes are huge and you're not rushed, so
> you can go where you like to find the best route for maximum points.
>
> It really does remove all the frusration of the genre while keeping
> the challenge - get the required amount of points.
Thats why 1080 had a 'stunt mode'.
> Good post.
>
> I think that an absense of time limits is good in some games. It works
> really well in Amped for example. In most snowboarding games, such as
> 1080, you have to finish the course within a certain amount of time.
>
> No so with Amped. It's all about the tricks you do. So you have no
> time limit in the game. The slopes are huge and you're not rushed, so
> you can go where you like to find the best route for maximum points.
>
> It really does remove all the frusration of the genre while keeping
> the challenge - get the required amount of points.
Thats why 1080 had a 'stunt mode'.
Strafex wrote:
> I'm also looking forward to the supposedly "incredibly
> fustrating" Monkey Ball on the Gamecube.
Oh its frustrating all right, but very possible to complete.
I thought you would mention Pikmin here. I have to say i think the time factor is a little too tight, i have barely enough time to bring a heavy piece of craft back to my ship. And then you have to dodge the enemies, thoses frogs are just evil.
> I'm also looking forward to the supposedly "incredibly
> fustrating" Monkey Ball on the Gamecube.
Oh its frustrating all right, but very possible to complete.
I thought you would mention Pikmin here. I have to say i think the time factor is a little too tight, i have barely enough time to bring a heavy piece of craft back to my ship. And then you have to dodge the enemies, thoses frogs are just evil.
Strfex, if Pikmin didn't have a time limit on its days the idea of the game would be flawed. Get 30 ship parts in 30 days. If it was Get 30 ship parts full stop you really would find it to be an 8 hour game. However, by including the time limit you will have to play through the game 2 or 3 times to complete it full, making it a 19 hour+ game. If you use the guides and these "practise days" it is going to be a short game now isn't it...
Pikmin's time limit isn't quite as bad as I thought it would be.
The game is set at a fair pace and you often have spare time to mess around. I would've prefered a time-limitless game though.
The day-night idea I'm fine with.
But when you've got a limited amout of days and limited time per day, that does sort of put the pressure on.
Still, you CAN explore and mess around by going through a day without saving the game (a technique Dringo likes to call "Practice Days") so I suppose you can get around the time limit.
Anyway, short lifespan and a time limit are only two small-ish flaws in this otherwise perfect game. I love it!
The game is set at a fair pace and you often have spare time to mess around. I would've prefered a time-limitless game though.
The day-night idea I'm fine with.
But when you've got a limited amout of days and limited time per day, that does sort of put the pressure on.
Still, you CAN explore and mess around by going through a day without saving the game (a technique Dringo likes to call "Practice Days") so I suppose you can get around the time limit.
Anyway, short lifespan and a time limit are only two small-ish flaws in this otherwise perfect game. I love it!
On GoldenEye, in 007 mode, make it one shot kills (for you as well!) and see how hany levels you can complete!
I couldn't agree more. Thoughtful use of timers is one thing, like in Zelda OOT particular missions, but I am no fan of them when widespread. Imagine if Lemmings was timer-restricted? I loved just watching those guys running around without coming to any harm while I sat back and considered my next move. I like the MI games when you can just think without rushing yourself. Even in Goldeneye i liked to get to a point whereby no-one was after me and I could take my time, such as picking people off from a sniper tower or having guards follow you to your cell where you would just pick them off one by one. I just can't stand being rushed, and the news that Pikmin is just such a game disappoints me greatly.
I don't mind time limits. They are very challenging, and like you, Strafex, I like a good challenege. And like you, Super Monkey Ball is top of my list for GC because of its extreme difficulty levels and frustratingly-designed levels. I like progressing through levels and adjusting to the slight increase in difficulty every 5 levels or something.
The thing with the time limit is that, once you try a level for the 4th or 5th time, and get a grips with the level's layout, you can eventually complete it in time, and the feeling of satisfaction and relief is great, I could liv on it!
The thing with the time limit is that, once you try a level for the 4th or 5th time, and get a grips with the level's layout, you can eventually complete it in time, and the feeling of satisfaction and relief is great, I could liv on it!
All I can say is: I agree.
When most time limits kick in, gameplay is reduced to hopeful panic.
I find it annoying and difficult to enjoy games under such contrived limits.
I like games wherein I can explore and experiment without any fear of the Game Over script appearing on the screen telling me "time's up" - unless of course it's Crazy Taxi 2 which (like Blast Corps) is based on a creative use of limited time.
When most time limits kick in, gameplay is reduced to hopeful panic.
I find it annoying and difficult to enjoy games under such contrived limits.
I like games wherein I can explore and experiment without any fear of the Game Over script appearing on the screen telling me "time's up" - unless of course it's Crazy Taxi 2 which (like Blast Corps) is based on a creative use of limited time.
Good post.
I think that an absense of time limits is good in some games. It works really well in Amped for example. In most snowboarding games, such as 1080, you have to finish the course within a certain amount of time.
No so with Amped. It's all about the tricks you do. So you have no time limit in the game. The slopes are huge and you're not rushed, so you can go where you like to find the best route for maximum points.
It really does remove all the frusration of the genre while keeping the challenge - get the required amount of points.
I think that an absense of time limits is good in some games. It works really well in Amped for example. In most snowboarding games, such as 1080, you have to finish the course within a certain amount of time.
No so with Amped. It's all about the tricks you do. So you have no time limit in the game. The slopes are huge and you're not rushed, so you can go where you like to find the best route for maximum points.
It really does remove all the frusration of the genre while keeping the challenge - get the required amount of points.
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