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Apologies if someone here has already covered this but anyway...
With the Queen Mother passing away on Saturday the news has, rightfully, been dominated by that and stories around it. Obviously this is quite right and to be expected BUT...and there's always a but isn't there ?
The situation between Israel and Palestine, and the whole Middle East in general is a stroy that many networks, apart from CNN and Fox, and maybe SKY, seem to be generally giving little air time to. This is wrong because the situation there is rapidly detieriorating by the minute and many aren't even aware how serious it has become.
Over the weekend nearly Iran and Iraq were welcomed back into the Middle eastern equivalent of the EU by nearly all the countries apart from Saudi Arabia and two others. In addtion OPEC is beginning to cause rising oil, and consequently petrol, prices. This alone will be bad for the world economy, at least in the West. Egypt has today broken diplomatic ties with Israel - another bad event because lack of communication between governments often leads to fatal misunderstanding. Israel continues its incursions whilst its own citizens are dying still from the aftermath of the Palestinian suicide bombers responsible for this new wave of violence. You've also got Arafat refusing to leave Ramallah, Palestinians holed up in the centre of Bethlehem, Hamas vowing to continue suicdie bombings and rocet attacks against Israel, Ariel Sharon unable to back down because of his own people, America stuck in the middle and facing criticism whatever it decides to do, Bush himself is trapped by his own public opinion, the UN messing around as usual on the sidelines and peace protestors seemingly trying to see how far they can push Israeli troops before they will open fire...not to mention civilians on both sides of this conflict.
In short, we could be looking at a new Middle Eastern war, and most people don't care or are too concerned with politically correct squabbling.
So thats my rant over :) Go back to watching Who Wants To Be A Millionaire or something.....
With the Queen Mother passing away on Saturday the news has, rightfully, been dominated by that and stories around it. Obviously this is quite right and to be expected BUT...and there's always a but isn't there ?
The situation between Israel and Palestine, and the whole Middle East in general is a stroy that many networks, apart from CNN and Fox, and maybe SKY, seem to be generally giving little air time to. This is wrong because the situation there is rapidly detieriorating by the minute and many aren't even aware how serious it has become.
Over the weekend nearly Iran and Iraq were welcomed back into the Middle eastern equivalent of the EU by nearly all the countries apart from Saudi Arabia and two others. In addtion OPEC is beginning to cause rising oil, and consequently petrol, prices. This alone will be bad for the world economy, at least in the West. Egypt has today broken diplomatic ties with Israel - another bad event because lack of communication between governments often leads to fatal misunderstanding. Israel continues its incursions whilst its own citizens are dying still from the aftermath of the Palestinian suicide bombers responsible for this new wave of violence. You've also got Arafat refusing to leave Ramallah, Palestinians holed up in the centre of Bethlehem, Hamas vowing to continue suicdie bombings and rocet attacks against Israel, Ariel Sharon unable to back down because of his own people, America stuck in the middle and facing criticism whatever it decides to do, Bush himself is trapped by his own public opinion, the UN messing around as usual on the sidelines and peace protestors seemingly trying to see how far they can push Israeli troops before they will open fire...not to mention civilians on both sides of this conflict.
In short, we could be looking at a new Middle Eastern war, and most people don't care or are too concerned with politically correct squabbling.
So thats my rant over :) Go back to watching Who Wants To Be A Millionaire or something.....
Page:
First of all, apologies to Seinfeld_Enthusiast for blaming him personally for the Middle East crisis. Two excuses: I was (a) drunk, and (b) annoyed at the whole situation out there. For some reason I took your point that there is such state as Palestine as a denial of its RIGHT to exist, which it clearly wasn't. Oops. ;~) Basically the point I was trying to make was that there was no 1948 cut-off date for legitimate statehood.
On terrorism, I would say this. The 'peace process' has been ongoing since Israel's inception, ever since the land marked out for a Palestinian state by the UN was partitioned by Israel and Jordan. During this time Israel has built and populated illegal settlements all over the occupied territories. (And not always with the consent of its people: Sephardic immigrants were routinely redirected to strategic and economically useful areas.) It has shown little of the goodwill that is often demanded of the Palestinians. In short the political process has failed the Palestinians, as has their leadership. It is now more than a half century since the founding of Israel and justice is no closer for the Palestinians whose land was so generously given away by the great powers. In this environment, and in a climate of perpetual harrasment and prejudice against Arabs, it is little wonder that so many are turning to terrorism. They see no other alternative.
Arafat is unable, not unwilling, to stop terror. First, every Israeli attack pushes more Palestinians towards militancy, and simultaneously reduces the ability of the PA to deal with it. Sharon consistently demands arrests: and then attacks the police stations which are presumably responsible for these arrests. Second, terrorism can only survive because it has some support in the community - a willingness to keep quiet, or to provide accomodation and food etc. Neither heavy policing by the PA nor Israeli military attacks will stop the suicide bombing.
This needs a political solution. And it is the same solution that has been available for years: withdrawal from the occupied territories, dismantling the settlements and a viable Palestinian state. Only then are Israelis and Palestinians going to be safe from violence.
On terrorism, I would say this. The 'peace process' has been ongoing since Israel's inception, ever since the land marked out for a Palestinian state by the UN was partitioned by Israel and Jordan. During this time Israel has built and populated illegal settlements all over the occupied territories. (And not always with the consent of its people: Sephardic immigrants were routinely redirected to strategic and economically useful areas.) It has shown little of the goodwill that is often demanded of the Palestinians. In short the political process has failed the Palestinians, as has their leadership. It is now more than a half century since the founding of Israel and justice is no closer for the Palestinians whose land was so generously given away by the great powers. In this environment, and in a climate of perpetual harrasment and prejudice against Arabs, it is little wonder that so many are turning to terrorism. They see no other alternative.
Arafat is unable, not unwilling, to stop terror. First, every Israeli attack pushes more Palestinians towards militancy, and simultaneously reduces the ability of the PA to deal with it. Sharon consistently demands arrests: and then attacks the police stations which are presumably responsible for these arrests. Second, terrorism can only survive because it has some support in the community - a willingness to keep quiet, or to provide accomodation and food etc. Neither heavy policing by the PA nor Israeli military attacks will stop the suicide bombing.
This needs a political solution. And it is the same solution that has been available for years: withdrawal from the occupied territories, dismantling the settlements and a viable Palestinian state. Only then are Israelis and Palestinians going to be safe from violence.
The problem Arafat has is that suicide bombers will continue to represent his cause, whether he likes it or not. No-one really knows the link between Hamas and the PLO- some say they are in cohoots, some say they are acting autonomously of each other, others think it's just individuals carrying out the suicide bombings. Arafat's position is made harder by the fact that he is so restricted to what he can do, and if he was to make an effort to say that he is just as against terrorism as Israel is, then maybe people would listen. This of course is provided Israel has withdrawn from the now-occpied territories and left the Palestinians with less of an axe to grind, less justification for terrorism. I think that the academic opinion rests with the Palestinians at the moment, but that is largely because of Israeli incursions. I think that the British televsion media is fairly unbiased and is very conscious of siding with one party. After all, if something is newsworthy, if people are being murdered indiscriminately, they have a job to report the facts, regardless who the injured party is.
Theres all good points but I still think the Palestinians - whether they have this moral high ground you say they have - have a major problem. This moral highground is only seen mainly by them. No country that sends sucide bombers out has a moral highground and I challenge anyone to argue it does ! Until Arafat can stop, forcefully, the terrorist factions, there can be no peace of any meaning and the majority of the world will still - rightfully I feel - see Israel as the victim. A nation who make know atempt to stop its own people killing anothers civilians, even their children, isn't one I care for.
Even with the Palestinians atempt to manipulate the media and world opinion, people sit down at night and see Israeli people killed in explosions and the scene looks like ones in our own cities, the clothes, the cars, the style...then we see the Palestinians and they look different, often scary and violent, burning flags and so on. It doesnt matter what is said, people see those images and make associations and many will sidewith Israel for no other reason than "they are like us".
Terrorism is now seen as the new threat by most of the West and its populations, and Palestinians generally equal terrorists in most perceptions. Until that ends then the Palestinians are never going to win any backing of note.
Even with the Palestinians atempt to manipulate the media and world opinion, people sit down at night and see Israeli people killed in explosions and the scene looks like ones in our own cities, the clothes, the cars, the style...then we see the Palestinians and they look different, often scary and violent, burning flags and so on. It doesnt matter what is said, people see those images and make associations and many will sidewith Israel for no other reason than "they are like us".
Terrorism is now seen as the new threat by most of the West and its populations, and Palestinians generally equal terrorists in most perceptions. Until that ends then the Palestinians are never going to win any backing of note.
I hope I have made my point about 'Palestine'; to refer to it is to incinuate victory, and until such a time as the Palestinian people are granted their own nation, I do not feel it is appropriate to elude to it, least of all by people representing the Palestinian cause.
Now that we are talking politics, I think you're all wrong. If there's one thing the intifada has taught us, is that taking sides is counter-productive. There is no use saying Israel has no right to exist, there is no point saying that the Palestinian people don't deserve a place to call home.
The key is for both parties to make attainable goals. Though peace looks far off at the moment, I seriously believe that the removal of Israeli military force from the occupied territories, and the granting to Arafat of freedom to move, will leave the Palestinian people two choices: make good their side of the bargain and stop the suicide bombers, or lose the moral highground, which they have at the moment.
Thereafter, it all depends on a ceasefire and, for Israel, a change of personnel. I don't know when the next elections are coming up, but I can't see Sharon sitting at a table with Arafat and Bush, discussing a peace treaty.
It is as wrong to suggest that all Palestinians are terrorists as it is to assume that all Israelis are in agreement with their government. Palestinians are almost all just normal people, crippled by years of fighting. There is considerable internal unrest in Israeli quarters: many Israelis recently demonstrated outside the US embassy in Jerusalem, many soldiers refuse to take part in incursions into Palestinian settlements and, even in Europe, there is an pro-Palestinian organisation called Jews for Justice. As a Jew, I feel terribly misrepresented when people assume all Jews are in agreement with Israel, and it hurts me when you hear of the anti-Semitic atrocities in France recently, the incineration of a synagogue, for heaven's sake.
What I find so relevant to this issue is that the plight of the Palestinian people almost exactly mimics the history of the Jewish people, and the similarities are so blindingly obvious.
For centuries it was Jews that were the oppressed, in Germany, Russia, France, Poland, Spain, Britain and so on, yet Israel now is the persecutor of homeless, landless, rejected people. Sound familiar? Like I believe most Palestinians to be, Jews are peaceful, constructive members of society, and for Israel to do what for so many years other countries have done to its people, is negligent to history.
In Melbourne recently, about three thousand Muslim immigrants were detained in a remote part of the country awaiting asylum, and it was the Australian Jews that supported their cause endlessly, because they could empaphise with them so vividly.
Throughout the civil rights movement in America, American Jewry fully supported Martin Luther King and company, rallying and campaigning, as if it were themselves in that position. So how can Israel, supposedly the homeland of Jews across the globe, put its own citizens in so much danger and ignore the teachings of the Torah and the Bible, which preach to do unto others as you would do unto yourselves?
I know I have written quite a lot so I'll stop now, but I thought I'd tell you why I feel betrayed by Israel and believe both parties to be just as bad as each other. Of course Israel has a right to exist, but not in Gaza and the West Bank, and must now retreat from these areas, in return for an end to the suicide bombers; neither side can continue to so blatantly disregard human life.
Now that we are talking politics, I think you're all wrong. If there's one thing the intifada has taught us, is that taking sides is counter-productive. There is no use saying Israel has no right to exist, there is no point saying that the Palestinian people don't deserve a place to call home.
The key is for both parties to make attainable goals. Though peace looks far off at the moment, I seriously believe that the removal of Israeli military force from the occupied territories, and the granting to Arafat of freedom to move, will leave the Palestinian people two choices: make good their side of the bargain and stop the suicide bombers, or lose the moral highground, which they have at the moment.
Thereafter, it all depends on a ceasefire and, for Israel, a change of personnel. I don't know when the next elections are coming up, but I can't see Sharon sitting at a table with Arafat and Bush, discussing a peace treaty.
It is as wrong to suggest that all Palestinians are terrorists as it is to assume that all Israelis are in agreement with their government. Palestinians are almost all just normal people, crippled by years of fighting. There is considerable internal unrest in Israeli quarters: many Israelis recently demonstrated outside the US embassy in Jerusalem, many soldiers refuse to take part in incursions into Palestinian settlements and, even in Europe, there is an pro-Palestinian organisation called Jews for Justice. As a Jew, I feel terribly misrepresented when people assume all Jews are in agreement with Israel, and it hurts me when you hear of the anti-Semitic atrocities in France recently, the incineration of a synagogue, for heaven's sake.
What I find so relevant to this issue is that the plight of the Palestinian people almost exactly mimics the history of the Jewish people, and the similarities are so blindingly obvious.
For centuries it was Jews that were the oppressed, in Germany, Russia, France, Poland, Spain, Britain and so on, yet Israel now is the persecutor of homeless, landless, rejected people. Sound familiar? Like I believe most Palestinians to be, Jews are peaceful, constructive members of society, and for Israel to do what for so many years other countries have done to its people, is negligent to history.
In Melbourne recently, about three thousand Muslim immigrants were detained in a remote part of the country awaiting asylum, and it was the Australian Jews that supported their cause endlessly, because they could empaphise with them so vividly.
Throughout the civil rights movement in America, American Jewry fully supported Martin Luther King and company, rallying and campaigning, as if it were themselves in that position. So how can Israel, supposedly the homeland of Jews across the globe, put its own citizens in so much danger and ignore the teachings of the Torah and the Bible, which preach to do unto others as you would do unto yourselves?
I know I have written quite a lot so I'll stop now, but I thought I'd tell you why I feel betrayed by Israel and believe both parties to be just as bad as each other. Of course Israel has a right to exist, but not in Gaza and the West Bank, and must now retreat from these areas, in return for an end to the suicide bombers; neither side can continue to so blatantly disregard human life.
No country is ever going to join the Palestinians in a war with Israel. Why ?
Well the Middle East controls the worlds oil supplies, mostly, but this oil is the source of its wealth, Iraq invaded Kuwait for the oil fields. War is,literally, bad for business.
In addition, the countries that could join the Palestinians - Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria - are all ones that America, the UK, and many other countries, are just waiting for an excuse to spread the war on terror to. Whatever Israel is doing, the West is classing the Palestinians as terrorists - not the Israelis.
Any such alliance would last - at most - a month from the first attack on Israel. America and her allies have enough manpower and equipment in place to hold back an attack on Israel for an estimated two months according to www.fas.org. During that time more troops and equipment would be deployed and eventually pursue any invader outside of Israel, and into their own territory. Israel is unlikely to go Nuclear as doing so loses any support it has from allies. No force in history has ever stood, and survived against Israel and that of her main ally America. Make no mistake that there can only be one winner in a Middle Eastern conflict - Israel.
Of course war on a wide scale would be terrible, which is why Israel isn't backing down - doing so is a sign of weakness to invite further attacks. in many ways Arafat cannot control groups like Hamas because they have split fro his influence - eliminate these groups and you stand a chance of peace. It is okay saying Israel is breeding hatred in Palestinians, but a peace accord could very well do the same with Israelis......if brought about in such a way as this. Palestinians cannot bomb there way to the negotiating table - we let the Irish terrorist groups do that to us and look whats happened !
Well the Middle East controls the worlds oil supplies, mostly, but this oil is the source of its wealth, Iraq invaded Kuwait for the oil fields. War is,literally, bad for business.
In addition, the countries that could join the Palestinians - Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria - are all ones that America, the UK, and many other countries, are just waiting for an excuse to spread the war on terror to. Whatever Israel is doing, the West is classing the Palestinians as terrorists - not the Israelis.
Any such alliance would last - at most - a month from the first attack on Israel. America and her allies have enough manpower and equipment in place to hold back an attack on Israel for an estimated two months according to www.fas.org. During that time more troops and equipment would be deployed and eventually pursue any invader outside of Israel, and into their own territory. Israel is unlikely to go Nuclear as doing so loses any support it has from allies. No force in history has ever stood, and survived against Israel and that of her main ally America. Make no mistake that there can only be one winner in a Middle Eastern conflict - Israel.
Of course war on a wide scale would be terrible, which is why Israel isn't backing down - doing so is a sign of weakness to invite further attacks. in many ways Arafat cannot control groups like Hamas because they have split fro his influence - eliminate these groups and you stand a chance of peace. It is okay saying Israel is breeding hatred in Palestinians, but a peace accord could very well do the same with Israelis......if brought about in such a way as this. Palestinians cannot bomb there way to the negotiating table - we let the Irish terrorist groups do that to us and look whats happened !
I am not supporting suicide bombers. I am simply suggesting that if Israel wants to stop suicide bombers then war is not the way forward. All Israel has succeeded in doing is creating an atmosphere in which people turn to extremes.
There is no way that the Palistinians can stand up to Israel, which for obvious reasons has one of the most developed armies in the world. So what happnes if Palistine calls upon it's Arabic neighbours to come to its aid? The war will be the worst in living memory. Israel is in a precarious geographical position and it cannot afford to be overtly aggressive.
I agree that it should move against terrorists; however this is not the same thing as sending in the troops. Terrorists can be policed by other methods. In my opinion the Palastinians should be given a final chance to police their own people, and stop attacks, but this will not happen until Israel accepts Palistine's right to exist. The current situation can only result in further misery for all concerned. So what if Israel captures some guns? It has created another person willing to martyr themself by doing so, and suicide bombers cause far much more damage than guns.
Could Israel not police it's borders and adopt a defensive strategy to stopping suicide bombers? If this was combined with an agreement that Palistine accepted and allowed it statehood then what little justification suicide bombers perceive themselves to have would be removed. Once again they would become fanatics to their own people rather than heroes. Palastine and Israel could work together to remove terrorist elements just as other countries have. Once you have marginalised the terrorists they become much easier to control.
Look at Ireland. The IRA was born out of British aggression towards the Irish. Now that Britain has pulled out to a certain extent, the terrorists are no longer seen as the heroes that many Irish people used to believe them to be. Equally terrorists have been ostracised from the political process and so things are gradually improving. If Israel persists in its incursions into Palistinian territory it will not bring about peace. How can it? Israel cannot achieve peace through war until it kills every single Palistinian, if not muslim. Because wars don't create peace when they are so intrinisically linked to religion.
I don't support suicide bombers and I don't particularly agree with the Palistinian response to Israeli attacks either. I do think the onus to end the dispute falls on Ariel Sharon. You cannot get an underground terrorist group to stop attacks very easily. A state can stop its advances if it accepts losing face. A state also has moral obligations that terrorist organisations lack.
Finally I would like to return to the 18 year old girl who blew herself up in the name of Allah. This has nothing to do with a liberal Western media obsession. The fact that an educated girl became an extremist, willing to kill innocent Israeli civilians, shows how far the extremist message is permeating. It takes a great deal of hatred for another race to go and kill yourself and try to take as many nameless individuals with you as possible. If the range of people willing to matyr themselves is increasing then it is because Israel is becoming more aggressive. Israel is becoming more aggressive because suicide bombers keep attacking it. Suicide bombers keep attacking Israel because it is becoming more aggressive. It is going to go on and on and on and on until one side backs down or is wiped out. I can't see a terrorist group run by fanatics who want Israel wiped out backing down; so Israel MUST back down, because if it stops then the fanaticism will be dampened down and the suicide bombings will decline.
And a final footnote, as I didn't have time to say it in my previous post.. I do think that something needs to be done about Iraq. I was merely implying that America won't have much room to tell Israel not to be aggressive if it is considering an attack on Iraq.
There is no way that the Palistinians can stand up to Israel, which for obvious reasons has one of the most developed armies in the world. So what happnes if Palistine calls upon it's Arabic neighbours to come to its aid? The war will be the worst in living memory. Israel is in a precarious geographical position and it cannot afford to be overtly aggressive.
I agree that it should move against terrorists; however this is not the same thing as sending in the troops. Terrorists can be policed by other methods. In my opinion the Palastinians should be given a final chance to police their own people, and stop attacks, but this will not happen until Israel accepts Palistine's right to exist. The current situation can only result in further misery for all concerned. So what if Israel captures some guns? It has created another person willing to martyr themself by doing so, and suicide bombers cause far much more damage than guns.
Could Israel not police it's borders and adopt a defensive strategy to stopping suicide bombers? If this was combined with an agreement that Palistine accepted and allowed it statehood then what little justification suicide bombers perceive themselves to have would be removed. Once again they would become fanatics to their own people rather than heroes. Palastine and Israel could work together to remove terrorist elements just as other countries have. Once you have marginalised the terrorists they become much easier to control.
Look at Ireland. The IRA was born out of British aggression towards the Irish. Now that Britain has pulled out to a certain extent, the terrorists are no longer seen as the heroes that many Irish people used to believe them to be. Equally terrorists have been ostracised from the political process and so things are gradually improving. If Israel persists in its incursions into Palistinian territory it will not bring about peace. How can it? Israel cannot achieve peace through war until it kills every single Palistinian, if not muslim. Because wars don't create peace when they are so intrinisically linked to religion.
I don't support suicide bombers and I don't particularly agree with the Palistinian response to Israeli attacks either. I do think the onus to end the dispute falls on Ariel Sharon. You cannot get an underground terrorist group to stop attacks very easily. A state can stop its advances if it accepts losing face. A state also has moral obligations that terrorist organisations lack.
Finally I would like to return to the 18 year old girl who blew herself up in the name of Allah. This has nothing to do with a liberal Western media obsession. The fact that an educated girl became an extremist, willing to kill innocent Israeli civilians, shows how far the extremist message is permeating. It takes a great deal of hatred for another race to go and kill yourself and try to take as many nameless individuals with you as possible. If the range of people willing to matyr themselves is increasing then it is because Israel is becoming more aggressive. Israel is becoming more aggressive because suicide bombers keep attacking it. Suicide bombers keep attacking Israel because it is becoming more aggressive. It is going to go on and on and on and on until one side backs down or is wiped out. I can't see a terrorist group run by fanatics who want Israel wiped out backing down; so Israel MUST back down, because if it stops then the fanaticism will be dampened down and the suicide bombings will decline.
And a final footnote, as I didn't have time to say it in my previous post.. I do think that something needs to be done about Iraq. I was merely implying that America won't have much room to tell Israel not to be aggressive if it is considering an attack on Iraq.
Mr. Happy wrote:
> Belldandy I have to disagree with your position again.
Think I'm going to have to do the same with your argument too... :)
>The problem right now
> is as much of America's making as anyone else's. In his State of the Union
> address and constant posturing over terrorism and wars on terror, George Bush
> has given carte blanche to Israel to do whatever it likes in Palastine. Not
> directly I admit, but you will notice that in every interview that an Israeli
> official gives, they use all the same Jargon as Bush, as if this legitimises in
> some way their actions.
The real problem is the spectre of 1939 hanging over the head of nearly every Jew in Israel and beyond. Prior to World War 2 every nation sat back and watched the Holocaust in the making and did nothing, Britain even sent back ships of German born Jews because it didn't want them and didn't believe them. Israel is not going to forget that in a long long time, and is going to do everything it can to make sure that it never relies on others or is seen to be. In America there is massive public support for Israel because of the Palestinian tactics. Who is going to sympathise with a suicide bomber ? Hardly no one. For Bush to say anything other than what he did would be poltical suicide for his administration, and the same goes for Blair too. The Israeli offcials don't need to legtiamise what they're doing as in their eyes it is okay. Even abroad, viewers see Israli military advancing whilst Palestinian suicdie bombers kill civilians. Whatever the morality is, it doesn't matter one bit. I, and many others, sit down to tea at night and see dead and wounded Israeli civlians, and hear of Palestinian gunmen being shot. The Palestinian civlians interviewed speak of revenge and hate, the Israli's generally only want to get those committing the terrorist acts.
>Today Israeli troops threw stun grenades at
> journalists. They are laying siege to a church containing Palastinian gunmen.
Okay, why are those people in that Church eh ? THEY FORCED THEIR WAY IN. They are exploiting what that site means to people and is typical of the callous way Palestinians seek to manipulate foreign opinion. If they cared so much for that Church then they should have gone elsewhere.
> They are pushing into more towns. Israel is the agressor and I fear that they
> are using the suicide bombings as an excuse. Sharon can back down and he must
> back down. Like it or not, the burden of backing down has to be Israel's because
> they are a state and the bombings are perpetrated by individuals.
The bombings are funded by terrorist groups like Hamas, not individuals. Look at the weapons cahces found today, you're teling me the average Palestinian keeps an RPG under his bed ? The explosives, weapons and training are supplied by organisations. once, Sharon would have backed down, once, but what happens every time before he has done so ? You're friendly peace loving Palestinians go and suicide bomb another pile of civilians. This latest wave of violence, the incursions into these areas, origniates with a suicide bomb. Arafat is useless and cannot control the groups within his own country.
>And what is Israel doing anyway? Sending the
> tanks in has really done a whole heap of good. I agree that they should not be
> forced to be the subjects of terrorism, but they should not go about stopping
> the attacks with more violence. An 18 year old palastinian girl went and blew
> herself up in Israel.
3 days since the last suicide bombing. Thats just one achievement. Scores of Palestinians wanted for atrocities arrested, others dead. Weapons caches captured, intelligence gathering.....this operation is becoming startlingly effective and will continue to be so. Effectivewly all the newly occupied areas are isolated and surrounded from the outside world. Nothing gets in or out, including supplies. Many many Palestinians, whilst wnting their own state, are not extremists at all and want a political solution. As the situation in these areas worsens those harbouring terrorists are going to really consider whether they support them or not. The 18 year old girl blowing herself up was pretty much a waste of her life and only really resounded with the Palestinians and Western media, Israelis mostly didn't care, nor did many other people. She was a terrorist and the media is going all gooey eyed just because she was a woman, if someone wants to kill others then I don't care who or what they are.
>If that doesn't provide an indication of the hatred that
> Israel is creating then I don't know what else does. Israel has to see that it
> what it is doing is creating a new wave of suicide bombers. The further it
> invades the more hatred it is going to breed. And hatred and war create suicide
> bombers that will go and kill more Israelis. If Israel wants to claim the moral
> authority then it has to pull out.
Great writing here but its the textbook answer to this situation that is repeated the world over. It isn't hte answer for several reasons.
1) It is from a Western standpoint. The assumption is that Israel is willing to back down in the face of rising civlian casulaties. The Western governments won't do that and don't, so why expect Israel to do so ?
2) The moral autority talked of is again a western viewpoint that in Israel's eyes is Palestinian sympathising.
3) The whole thing is full of "perfect world" thinking. Hamas and other groups have stated that until Israel is no longer in existence they will attack it. Think back to hte IRA bombing of Canary Wharf. What would our reaction be if, whilst the ceasefire negotiations were in place, the Real IRA said "we're going to keep on atacking until every British person is dead" ? You'd be seeing urban warfare as fast as we could deploy the units over there.....
>Someone needs to
> back down before Israel becomes embroiled in a bloody war involving all of the
> Arabic states. The best way to do this would be for America to state
> categorically that Israel should pull out of Palistine.
I won't get started on Iraq again, except to say that once Saddam's WMDS are ready, the UK will be the closest target of note, and that our lack of enthusiasm for attackinf IRaq puts us in a very dangerous situation. You are assuming that Israel is controlled by America, whatever the various POV's of this, Israel will not snap to attention when Bush asks as this puts Sharon in the position of a puppet. Even is America were to make such a statement, how do you enforce it ? The whole problem is the UN, since Korea it has become a joke, with brilliant men like Kofi Annan crippled by infighting and political playing around. Is the UN willing to commit men to keep the peace in the area ? No, but it'll jolly well have alook once the fightings over thank you very much.
Keeping the peace means stopping the wars before they begin, not picking through the bodies afterwards.
> Belldandy I have to disagree with your position again.
Think I'm going to have to do the same with your argument too... :)
>The problem right now
> is as much of America's making as anyone else's. In his State of the Union
> address and constant posturing over terrorism and wars on terror, George Bush
> has given carte blanche to Israel to do whatever it likes in Palastine. Not
> directly I admit, but you will notice that in every interview that an Israeli
> official gives, they use all the same Jargon as Bush, as if this legitimises in
> some way their actions.
The real problem is the spectre of 1939 hanging over the head of nearly every Jew in Israel and beyond. Prior to World War 2 every nation sat back and watched the Holocaust in the making and did nothing, Britain even sent back ships of German born Jews because it didn't want them and didn't believe them. Israel is not going to forget that in a long long time, and is going to do everything it can to make sure that it never relies on others or is seen to be. In America there is massive public support for Israel because of the Palestinian tactics. Who is going to sympathise with a suicide bomber ? Hardly no one. For Bush to say anything other than what he did would be poltical suicide for his administration, and the same goes for Blair too. The Israeli offcials don't need to legtiamise what they're doing as in their eyes it is okay. Even abroad, viewers see Israli military advancing whilst Palestinian suicdie bombers kill civilians. Whatever the morality is, it doesn't matter one bit. I, and many others, sit down to tea at night and see dead and wounded Israeli civlians, and hear of Palestinian gunmen being shot. The Palestinian civlians interviewed speak of revenge and hate, the Israli's generally only want to get those committing the terrorist acts.
>Today Israeli troops threw stun grenades at
> journalists. They are laying siege to a church containing Palastinian gunmen.
Okay, why are those people in that Church eh ? THEY FORCED THEIR WAY IN. They are exploiting what that site means to people and is typical of the callous way Palestinians seek to manipulate foreign opinion. If they cared so much for that Church then they should have gone elsewhere.
> They are pushing into more towns. Israel is the agressor and I fear that they
> are using the suicide bombings as an excuse. Sharon can back down and he must
> back down. Like it or not, the burden of backing down has to be Israel's because
> they are a state and the bombings are perpetrated by individuals.
The bombings are funded by terrorist groups like Hamas, not individuals. Look at the weapons cahces found today, you're teling me the average Palestinian keeps an RPG under his bed ? The explosives, weapons and training are supplied by organisations. once, Sharon would have backed down, once, but what happens every time before he has done so ? You're friendly peace loving Palestinians go and suicide bomb another pile of civilians. This latest wave of violence, the incursions into these areas, origniates with a suicide bomb. Arafat is useless and cannot control the groups within his own country.
>And what is Israel doing anyway? Sending the
> tanks in has really done a whole heap of good. I agree that they should not be
> forced to be the subjects of terrorism, but they should not go about stopping
> the attacks with more violence. An 18 year old palastinian girl went and blew
> herself up in Israel.
3 days since the last suicide bombing. Thats just one achievement. Scores of Palestinians wanted for atrocities arrested, others dead. Weapons caches captured, intelligence gathering.....this operation is becoming startlingly effective and will continue to be so. Effectivewly all the newly occupied areas are isolated and surrounded from the outside world. Nothing gets in or out, including supplies. Many many Palestinians, whilst wnting their own state, are not extremists at all and want a political solution. As the situation in these areas worsens those harbouring terrorists are going to really consider whether they support them or not. The 18 year old girl blowing herself up was pretty much a waste of her life and only really resounded with the Palestinians and Western media, Israelis mostly didn't care, nor did many other people. She was a terrorist and the media is going all gooey eyed just because she was a woman, if someone wants to kill others then I don't care who or what they are.
>If that doesn't provide an indication of the hatred that
> Israel is creating then I don't know what else does. Israel has to see that it
> what it is doing is creating a new wave of suicide bombers. The further it
> invades the more hatred it is going to breed. And hatred and war create suicide
> bombers that will go and kill more Israelis. If Israel wants to claim the moral
> authority then it has to pull out.
Great writing here but its the textbook answer to this situation that is repeated the world over. It isn't hte answer for several reasons.
1) It is from a Western standpoint. The assumption is that Israel is willing to back down in the face of rising civlian casulaties. The Western governments won't do that and don't, so why expect Israel to do so ?
2) The moral autority talked of is again a western viewpoint that in Israel's eyes is Palestinian sympathising.
3) The whole thing is full of "perfect world" thinking. Hamas and other groups have stated that until Israel is no longer in existence they will attack it. Think back to hte IRA bombing of Canary Wharf. What would our reaction be if, whilst the ceasefire negotiations were in place, the Real IRA said "we're going to keep on atacking until every British person is dead" ? You'd be seeing urban warfare as fast as we could deploy the units over there.....
>Someone needs to
> back down before Israel becomes embroiled in a bloody war involving all of the
> Arabic states. The best way to do this would be for America to state
> categorically that Israel should pull out of Palistine.
I won't get started on Iraq again, except to say that once Saddam's WMDS are ready, the UK will be the closest target of note, and that our lack of enthusiasm for attackinf IRaq puts us in a very dangerous situation. You are assuming that Israel is controlled by America, whatever the various POV's of this, Israel will not snap to attention when Bush asks as this puts Sharon in the position of a puppet. Even is America were to make such a statement, how do you enforce it ? The whole problem is the UN, since Korea it has become a joke, with brilliant men like Kofi Annan crippled by infighting and political playing around. Is the UN willing to commit men to keep the peace in the area ? No, but it'll jolly well have alook once the fightings over thank you very much.
Keeping the peace means stopping the wars before they begin, not picking through the bodies afterwards.
Belldandy I have to disagree with your position again.
The problem right now is as much of America's making as anyone else's. In his State of the Union address and constant posturing over terrorism and wars on terror, George Bush has given carte blanche to Israel to do whatever it likes in Palastine. Not directly I admit, but you will notice that in every interview that an Israeli official gives, they use all the same Jargon as Bush, as if this legitimises in some way their actions.
Today Israeli troops threw stun grenades at journalists. They are laying siege to a church containing Palastinian gunmen. They are pushing into more towns. Israel is the agressor and I fear that they are using the suicide bombings as an excuse. Sharon can back down and he must back down. Like it or not, the burden of backing down has to be Israel's because they are a state and the bombings are perpetrated by individuals. In such a scenario the state has the responsibility to act, because individuals by nature don't make collective decisions.
And what is Israel doing anyway? Sending the tanks in has really done a whole heap of good. I agree that they should not be forced to be the subjects of terrorism, but they should not go about stopping the attacks with more violence. An 18 year old palastinian girl went and blew herself up in Israel. If that doesn't provide an indication of the hatred that Israel is creating then I don't know what else does. Israel has to see that it what it is doing is creating a new wave of suicide bombers. The further it invades the more hatred it is going to breed. And hatred and war create suicide bombers that will go and kill more Israelis. If Israel wants to claim the moral authority then it has to pull out. If Israel is satisfying a treaty and terrorists keep attacking Israel, then the whole world should unite behind Israel against these terrorists. But when Israel is bulldozing Palistinian villages and blowing up palistinian leaders and laying imprisoning Yassar Arafat under the auspices of fighting terror, it is no wonder that more and more palistinians are willing to martyr themselves.
With Bush currently contemplating an unprovoked attack on Iraq, he has little authority to tell Israel to stop its attacks. And until Israel is told by America to stop, it will infer a tacit support from the silence and go on. Ultimately you have to admit that both Israel and Palistine would like to see the other erased from the map. That is the justification behing incursions and bombings. There is little desire for peace among the leaders of either side. Sharon is, and always has been, a warmongering leader and Arafat is intent on becoming a martyr. Someone needs to back down before Israel becomes embroiled in a bloody war involving all of the Arabic states. The best way to do this would be for America to state categorically that Israel should pull out of Palistine.
Hatred only breeds hatred.
The problem right now is as much of America's making as anyone else's. In his State of the Union address and constant posturing over terrorism and wars on terror, George Bush has given carte blanche to Israel to do whatever it likes in Palastine. Not directly I admit, but you will notice that in every interview that an Israeli official gives, they use all the same Jargon as Bush, as if this legitimises in some way their actions.
Today Israeli troops threw stun grenades at journalists. They are laying siege to a church containing Palastinian gunmen. They are pushing into more towns. Israel is the agressor and I fear that they are using the suicide bombings as an excuse. Sharon can back down and he must back down. Like it or not, the burden of backing down has to be Israel's because they are a state and the bombings are perpetrated by individuals. In such a scenario the state has the responsibility to act, because individuals by nature don't make collective decisions.
And what is Israel doing anyway? Sending the tanks in has really done a whole heap of good. I agree that they should not be forced to be the subjects of terrorism, but they should not go about stopping the attacks with more violence. An 18 year old palastinian girl went and blew herself up in Israel. If that doesn't provide an indication of the hatred that Israel is creating then I don't know what else does. Israel has to see that it what it is doing is creating a new wave of suicide bombers. The further it invades the more hatred it is going to breed. And hatred and war create suicide bombers that will go and kill more Israelis. If Israel wants to claim the moral authority then it has to pull out. If Israel is satisfying a treaty and terrorists keep attacking Israel, then the whole world should unite behind Israel against these terrorists. But when Israel is bulldozing Palistinian villages and blowing up palistinian leaders and laying imprisoning Yassar Arafat under the auspices of fighting terror, it is no wonder that more and more palistinians are willing to martyr themselves.
With Bush currently contemplating an unprovoked attack on Iraq, he has little authority to tell Israel to stop its attacks. And until Israel is told by America to stop, it will infer a tacit support from the silence and go on. Ultimately you have to admit that both Israel and Palistine would like to see the other erased from the map. That is the justification behing incursions and bombings. There is little desire for peace among the leaders of either side. Sharon is, and always has been, a warmongering leader and Arafat is intent on becoming a martyr. Someone needs to back down before Israel becomes embroiled in a bloody war involving all of the Arabic states. The best way to do this would be for America to state categorically that Israel should pull out of Palistine.
Hatred only breeds hatred.
Seinfeld_Enthusiast wrote:
>My point was not a political one, I was just pointing out that
> the term 'Palestine' is not officially recognized since the inauguration of the
> state of Israel in 1948.
I'm sure that a majority of Palestinians would dispute this ! Political institutions don't, for the most part recognise it, but Palestinians do, and thats all that matters, and also why this situation is so dangerous. Western governments won't go to war over a land they don't recognise, yet Palestinians will fight and die for it. Official recognition isn't worth talking about, Palestine exists in the people's minds and always will.
Whats worrying now is that CNN and Sky are both running stories, along with Fox, claiming Al Queda terrorists have infiltrated into the West Bank area and are helping Hamas and other extreme Palestinian terrorist groups, plus Fox seems to have started today suggesting the Saddam Hussein is activating more military units to possibly exploit the situation in the area - at the very least all this speculation can only heighten fuel prices.
And lastly...the moronic BBC reporters and the other reporters who are whining about being tear gassed by hte Israeli's. 1) It is a restricted zone, whether you consider it legal or not the Israelis do. 2) The Israeli army has a lot of young soldiers, with plenty of training and little experience, they're going to be pretty trigger happy and not always willing to take the risk that a reporter is a reporter.....
I think all the debate here over what/whether there is "Palestine" goes to show a major problem outside of the Middle East - we get bogged down in political correctness and fail to address the real problem !
>My point was not a political one, I was just pointing out that
> the term 'Palestine' is not officially recognized since the inauguration of the
> state of Israel in 1948.
I'm sure that a majority of Palestinians would dispute this ! Political institutions don't, for the most part recognise it, but Palestinians do, and thats all that matters, and also why this situation is so dangerous. Western governments won't go to war over a land they don't recognise, yet Palestinians will fight and die for it. Official recognition isn't worth talking about, Palestine exists in the people's minds and always will.
Whats worrying now is that CNN and Sky are both running stories, along with Fox, claiming Al Queda terrorists have infiltrated into the West Bank area and are helping Hamas and other extreme Palestinian terrorist groups, plus Fox seems to have started today suggesting the Saddam Hussein is activating more military units to possibly exploit the situation in the area - at the very least all this speculation can only heighten fuel prices.
And lastly...the moronic BBC reporters and the other reporters who are whining about being tear gassed by hte Israeli's. 1) It is a restricted zone, whether you consider it legal or not the Israelis do. 2) The Israeli army has a lot of young soldiers, with plenty of training and little experience, they're going to be pretty trigger happy and not always willing to take the risk that a reporter is a reporter.....
I think all the debate here over what/whether there is "Palestine" goes to show a major problem outside of the Middle East - we get bogged down in political correctness and fail to address the real problem !
I got attacked for stating my views on the Queen Mum :P
Although orignal post was bit harsh I guess.
Although orignal post was bit harsh I guess.
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