The "General Games Chat" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
As you may or may not be aware both Nintendo and Microsoft are depending on this christmas to result in massive sales of their consoles. If either of them are seen to fail in the us and elsewhere in a big way its curtains for them. Shortly after christmas business analysts will look at the figures and make predictions of how that console is performing. If its thumbs down then ultimately in a very short time that console will be cancelled. Despite what many people say about Xbox and that Microsoft can absorb losses no problem and they are in for the long term if the xbox is being constantly rejected by the consumer even at its current ultra competitive price point its the end. The same is true of Gamecube except the gamecube is doing a few million better than xbox because its selling reasonably well in europe and japan. Theres little point in there being an xbox II if again it won't sell because its not called a Playstation.
I can't say I'm happy about this as I personally don't rate the ps2 but it has 80%+ of the home console market to itself.
I can't say I'm happy about this as I personally don't rate the ps2 but it has 80%+ of the home console market to itself.
Page:
*Looks shocked with jaw on floor*
Disgraceful!
Disgraceful!
"Your console broke because it was feeling unloved. To avoid this in future, you should stroke it while playing.
And the console."
And the console."
Silent85 wrote:
> I like the ps2 but not as much as xbox but after vice city who knows
> who I will like the most :P
Perfectly reasonable, matey! :-)
> I like the ps2 but not as much as xbox but after vice city who knows
> who I will like the most :P
Perfectly reasonable, matey! :-)
Belldandy wrote:
> Nope just in general, getting paranoid ?
Nope. No need to be paranoid - I own all three machines, so I'm a winner regardless of whoever fails or succeeds. I've nothing to say against any of the machines - I'm just being realistic.
> but a lot of sales are to kids as presents. They aren't going to be
> buying regular full priced games are they ?
No, but as the demographic shows most PS2s are actually bought for/by adults, enough games are and will continue to be bought.
> Look at how many decent games on PS2 have been
> released, then sunk from the charts without trace.
Very few of the decent games have done that, as far as I know. In fact, at least one of them is still there a year after its launch.
> I think you've taken this the wrong way, for you it all seems to be
> about proving the PS2's success.
Not at all! I don't need to prove the PS2s success, it's done that on its own. The PS2s success in terms of hardware and software sales was simply mentioned to demonstrate what I see as an innacuracy in the comment you made.
> But seriously, can you deny that PS2 online plans for the UK are not a
> mess ?
I didn't say anything about the online side of things, let alone deny anything. But since you ask - I wouldn't deny it, but look at it from a wider viewpoint.
Microsoft's online plans are relatively simple compared to Sony's. Microsoft are providing online gaming, and from what I gather, are making a pretty good job of it. Sony's plans appear to go far beyond that, though, and they are trying to provide a complex service in a simple way - so I am not surprised that it is taking longer.
But having said that, it would appear that it will be going live at around the same time as Xbox Live. I refer you to a post made in the Sony forum earlier today:
http://ukchatforums.reserve.co.uk/display_messages.php ?threadid=58401&forumid=135
(Remove 1 space)
Having said that, on a personal level, the online plans of both companies are of little interest to me. I prefer to have friends round for multiplayer games, rather than on the end of a phone line - even if I can talk to them through a headset.
> Christmas Sony will be counting on GTA Vice and Getaway to shift
> units, not solely of course but they do form part of the main
> Christmas push, but to me these are both just GTA3 spin offs.
Well, Vice City is obviously a GTA3 spin-off. The Getaway has actually been in development since before GTA3. As was the PC game Mafia. So it's not exactly a spin-off.
> GTA3 was great last year, but this year should have seen something
> different.
Why? GTA3 was a massively successful game. They've taken that, improved it, added to it, and made a better game. Should Bungie, then, not be bothering with Halo 2? Should Nintendo never produce another Mario game?
> Kingdom Hearts could've been big, but it'll sell hardly anything
> because of the 'dreaded' Disney word.
True, Disney games don't usually do very well. But then, I've just read a review of it on Gamers.com, and despite apparently being a good game, it has a lot of faults for which other games have been slated - e.g. poor camera, and "a basic hack and slash setup".
> Don't get me wrong, PS2 owners do buy a lot of software, but not every
> kind of software
But those titles are there, and more keep coming, so there's obviously money to be made from them on PS2.
> and that's a gap that Nintendo and Microsoft will exploit.
So are you saying that Nintendo and MS will have their own little niche areas?
I wouldn't say that. I think that MS and Sony can quite happily aim for the same market. There are plenty of cross-platform titles, and plenty of exclusives for each.
Nintendo will always have a market all of their own, but are doing very well in expanding it, with many more adult-themed games than they've ever had before.
All I'm saying is that I believe all three can co-exist, but that - realistically speaking - Sony are in an unassailable position as far as the current generation of hardware is concerned.
> We cannot say any company's place in the industry is assured - look at
> Sega, as you point out they went from the greatest to finished very
> fast.
Yes, Sega went from riches to rags quickly - but that was on the back of two consoles which under-achieved quite drastically. Sony do not have that issue, and even if they were to stop actively supporting PS2 tomorrow (which of course, they won't), it would still be some considerable time before the gap was closed - if at all.
Things could go wrong, of course, but there is no reason to believe that it will, nor any evidence at this moment in time that that anything is about to change. The same could not be said of Sega's situation.
> What is undeniable is that as usual Nintendo is missing a major part
> of the industry's future. Online play.
I was under the impression that they would have it eventually? They've release PSO in Japan, and there is an expansion port on the machine for a modem.
> I didn't think this would take off like it is, but it is taking off,
I think you may be jumping the gun a little with that, particularly with regard with the UK. Broadband is becoming more widely available, but the take-up is still slow. Of course, it is possible that the advent of online console gaming could be what finally drives the mass take-up of broadband, but only time will tell.
> Nope just in general, getting paranoid ?
Nope. No need to be paranoid - I own all three machines, so I'm a winner regardless of whoever fails or succeeds. I've nothing to say against any of the machines - I'm just being realistic.
> but a lot of sales are to kids as presents. They aren't going to be
> buying regular full priced games are they ?
No, but as the demographic shows most PS2s are actually bought for/by adults, enough games are and will continue to be bought.
> Look at how many decent games on PS2 have been
> released, then sunk from the charts without trace.
Very few of the decent games have done that, as far as I know. In fact, at least one of them is still there a year after its launch.
> I think you've taken this the wrong way, for you it all seems to be
> about proving the PS2's success.
Not at all! I don't need to prove the PS2s success, it's done that on its own. The PS2s success in terms of hardware and software sales was simply mentioned to demonstrate what I see as an innacuracy in the comment you made.
> But seriously, can you deny that PS2 online plans for the UK are not a
> mess ?
I didn't say anything about the online side of things, let alone deny anything. But since you ask - I wouldn't deny it, but look at it from a wider viewpoint.
Microsoft's online plans are relatively simple compared to Sony's. Microsoft are providing online gaming, and from what I gather, are making a pretty good job of it. Sony's plans appear to go far beyond that, though, and they are trying to provide a complex service in a simple way - so I am not surprised that it is taking longer.
But having said that, it would appear that it will be going live at around the same time as Xbox Live. I refer you to a post made in the Sony forum earlier today:
http://ukchatforums.reserve.co.uk/display_messages.php ?threadid=58401&forumid=135
(Remove 1 space)
Having said that, on a personal level, the online plans of both companies are of little interest to me. I prefer to have friends round for multiplayer games, rather than on the end of a phone line - even if I can talk to them through a headset.
> Christmas Sony will be counting on GTA Vice and Getaway to shift
> units, not solely of course but they do form part of the main
> Christmas push, but to me these are both just GTA3 spin offs.
Well, Vice City is obviously a GTA3 spin-off. The Getaway has actually been in development since before GTA3. As was the PC game Mafia. So it's not exactly a spin-off.
> GTA3 was great last year, but this year should have seen something
> different.
Why? GTA3 was a massively successful game. They've taken that, improved it, added to it, and made a better game. Should Bungie, then, not be bothering with Halo 2? Should Nintendo never produce another Mario game?
> Kingdom Hearts could've been big, but it'll sell hardly anything
> because of the 'dreaded' Disney word.
True, Disney games don't usually do very well. But then, I've just read a review of it on Gamers.com, and despite apparently being a good game, it has a lot of faults for which other games have been slated - e.g. poor camera, and "a basic hack and slash setup".
> Don't get me wrong, PS2 owners do buy a lot of software, but not every
> kind of software
But those titles are there, and more keep coming, so there's obviously money to be made from them on PS2.
> and that's a gap that Nintendo and Microsoft will exploit.
So are you saying that Nintendo and MS will have their own little niche areas?
I wouldn't say that. I think that MS and Sony can quite happily aim for the same market. There are plenty of cross-platform titles, and plenty of exclusives for each.
Nintendo will always have a market all of their own, but are doing very well in expanding it, with many more adult-themed games than they've ever had before.
All I'm saying is that I believe all three can co-exist, but that - realistically speaking - Sony are in an unassailable position as far as the current generation of hardware is concerned.
> We cannot say any company's place in the industry is assured - look at
> Sega, as you point out they went from the greatest to finished very
> fast.
Yes, Sega went from riches to rags quickly - but that was on the back of two consoles which under-achieved quite drastically. Sony do not have that issue, and even if they were to stop actively supporting PS2 tomorrow (which of course, they won't), it would still be some considerable time before the gap was closed - if at all.
Things could go wrong, of course, but there is no reason to believe that it will, nor any evidence at this moment in time that that anything is about to change. The same could not be said of Sega's situation.
> What is undeniable is that as usual Nintendo is missing a major part
> of the industry's future. Online play.
I was under the impression that they would have it eventually? They've release PSO in Japan, and there is an expansion port on the machine for a modem.
> I didn't think this would take off like it is, but it is taking off,
I think you may be jumping the gun a little with that, particularly with regard with the UK. Broadband is becoming more widely available, but the take-up is still slow. Of course, it is possible that the advent of online console gaming could be what finally drives the mass take-up of broadband, but only time will tell.
WòókieeMøn§†€® wrote:
> No doubt you are referring to the outdated assumption that many PS2
> owners use them to play DVDs only. It was the case in Japan for a
> short time after launch, but no longer. And has never been the case
> in Europe and the US.
Nope just in general, getting paranoid ? I've never actually heard of this anyway... It'd be a bit daft to buy a PS2 just for DVDs as for the price you could get at least something with Scart RGB playback, though in Japan the console does do this doesn't it ? Sure it does. My point was supposed to be that it's important who you a console is mainly sold to. Great, say a console shifts tons of units at christmas but a lot of sales are to kids as presents. They aren't going to be buying regular full priced games are they ?
> Apart from that, as I've already said elsewhere, console success is
> based on unit sales - why else would everyone including the industry
> be so obsessed about them? Even taking into account your view that
> software sales determine a console's success, PS2 would still be top
> of the pile. Just as an example - if 10% of PS2 owners were to buy
> Wreckless, that's more sales and profit for Activision than selling to
> 50% of Xbox owners.
But if Activision release Wreckless on the PS2 then it might not sell so many as there's more games out for it, more competition for software sales. Look at how many decent games on PS2 have been released, then sunk from the charts without trace.
> So tell me again how software sales determine the success of a
> console...
I think you've taken this the wrong way, for you it all seems to be about proving the PS2's success. Dreamcast didnt sell because of the lack of decent software, and hence retailer support.
But seriously, can you deny that PS2 online plans for the UK are not a mess ? All weve got so far are some vague features in OPS2 mag, and Sony's promises. Saw USSOCOM in Another World today and it look well excellent, but I can't be bothered to wait.
I mean, the one thing that gets me about Sony now is that the innovation seems dried up. Online play and Eyetoy are great looking things, but with no firm schedule for either its stupid ! Same as this Christmas Sony will be counting on GTA Vice and Getaway to shift units, not solely of course but they do form part of the main Christmas push, but to me these are both just GTA3 spin offs. GTA3 was great last year, but this year should have seen something different. Kingdom Hearts could've been big, but it'll sell hardly anything because of the 'dreaded' Disney word. Don't get me wrong, PS2 owners do buy a lot of software, but not every kind of software, and that's a gap that Nintendo and Microsoft will exploit.
We cannot say any company's place in the industry is assured - look at Sega, as you point out they went from the greatest to finished very fast. What makes it different now is that Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo, all have money to burn on any console selling war.
What is undeniable is that as usual Nintendo is missing a major part of the industry's future. Online play. I didn't think this would take off like it is, but it is taking off, and Nintendo need to get in gear quick and get games and hardware shifted. Microsoft and Sony both have one hole in their online plans in the UK - Broadband only. Sure, you need Broadband to keep quality and for certain kinds of games. But if Nintendo launched a Broadband/Dialup service I know which console would have the largest UK online community for some time.
~~Belldandy~~
> No doubt you are referring to the outdated assumption that many PS2
> owners use them to play DVDs only. It was the case in Japan for a
> short time after launch, but no longer. And has never been the case
> in Europe and the US.
Nope just in general, getting paranoid ? I've never actually heard of this anyway... It'd be a bit daft to buy a PS2 just for DVDs as for the price you could get at least something with Scart RGB playback, though in Japan the console does do this doesn't it ? Sure it does. My point was supposed to be that it's important who you a console is mainly sold to. Great, say a console shifts tons of units at christmas but a lot of sales are to kids as presents. They aren't going to be buying regular full priced games are they ?
> Apart from that, as I've already said elsewhere, console success is
> based on unit sales - why else would everyone including the industry
> be so obsessed about them? Even taking into account your view that
> software sales determine a console's success, PS2 would still be top
> of the pile. Just as an example - if 10% of PS2 owners were to buy
> Wreckless, that's more sales and profit for Activision than selling to
> 50% of Xbox owners.
But if Activision release Wreckless on the PS2 then it might not sell so many as there's more games out for it, more competition for software sales. Look at how many decent games on PS2 have been released, then sunk from the charts without trace.
> So tell me again how software sales determine the success of a
> console...
I think you've taken this the wrong way, for you it all seems to be about proving the PS2's success. Dreamcast didnt sell because of the lack of decent software, and hence retailer support.
But seriously, can you deny that PS2 online plans for the UK are not a mess ? All weve got so far are some vague features in OPS2 mag, and Sony's promises. Saw USSOCOM in Another World today and it look well excellent, but I can't be bothered to wait.
I mean, the one thing that gets me about Sony now is that the innovation seems dried up. Online play and Eyetoy are great looking things, but with no firm schedule for either its stupid ! Same as this Christmas Sony will be counting on GTA Vice and Getaway to shift units, not solely of course but they do form part of the main Christmas push, but to me these are both just GTA3 spin offs. GTA3 was great last year, but this year should have seen something different. Kingdom Hearts could've been big, but it'll sell hardly anything because of the 'dreaded' Disney word. Don't get me wrong, PS2 owners do buy a lot of software, but not every kind of software, and that's a gap that Nintendo and Microsoft will exploit.
We cannot say any company's place in the industry is assured - look at Sega, as you point out they went from the greatest to finished very fast. What makes it different now is that Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo, all have money to burn on any console selling war.
What is undeniable is that as usual Nintendo is missing a major part of the industry's future. Online play. I didn't think this would take off like it is, but it is taking off, and Nintendo need to get in gear quick and get games and hardware shifted. Microsoft and Sony both have one hole in their online plans in the UK - Broadband only. Sure, you need Broadband to keep quality and for certain kinds of games. But if Nintendo launched a Broadband/Dialup service I know which console would have the largest UK online community for some time.
~~Belldandy~~
Belldandy wrote:
> Software sales are what really count, waste of time selling loads of
> consoles if those owners don't buy software very much because software
> is the real money spinner.
No doubt you are referring to the outdated assumption that many PS2 owners use them to play DVDs only. It was the case in Japan for a short time after launch, but no longer. And has never been the case in Europe and the US.
Apart from that, as I've already said elsewhere, console success is based on unit sales - why else would everyone including the industry be so obsessed about them? Even taking into account your view that software sales determine a console's success, PS2 would still be top of the pile. Just as an example - if 10% of PS2 owners were to buy Wreckless, that's more sales and profit for Activision than selling to 50% of Xbox owners.
The Dreamcast is a prime example. Regardless of whether you think it was better than PS2 or not, it failed. (And by 'failed' I mean it had a far shorter life than was expected.) Why? Lack of unit sales. Even with "the best games company in the world" fully behind it, it was impractical to continue creating software for it because their wasn't a good enough return.
Of course, there are are many games charts, but most of them are filled mostly with PS2 titles, so it would seem the software is selling quite well.
Although it will depend on which charts you look at, according to GamesChart.com, the UK/Euro chart is the only one with any Xbox games in the Top 10. The Top 10's for Japan, Australasia and - crucially - the US have no Xbox titles in them.
So tell me again how software sales determine the success of a console...
> Software sales are what really count, waste of time selling loads of
> consoles if those owners don't buy software very much because software
> is the real money spinner.
No doubt you are referring to the outdated assumption that many PS2 owners use them to play DVDs only. It was the case in Japan for a short time after launch, but no longer. And has never been the case in Europe and the US.
Apart from that, as I've already said elsewhere, console success is based on unit sales - why else would everyone including the industry be so obsessed about them? Even taking into account your view that software sales determine a console's success, PS2 would still be top of the pile. Just as an example - if 10% of PS2 owners were to buy Wreckless, that's more sales and profit for Activision than selling to 50% of Xbox owners.
The Dreamcast is a prime example. Regardless of whether you think it was better than PS2 or not, it failed. (And by 'failed' I mean it had a far shorter life than was expected.) Why? Lack of unit sales. Even with "the best games company in the world" fully behind it, it was impractical to continue creating software for it because their wasn't a good enough return.
Of course, there are are many games charts, but most of them are filled mostly with PS2 titles, so it would seem the software is selling quite well.
Although it will depend on which charts you look at, according to GamesChart.com, the UK/Euro chart is the only one with any Xbox games in the Top 10. The Top 10's for Japan, Australasia and - crucially - the US have no Xbox titles in them.
So tell me again how software sales determine the success of a console...
Page: