The "Freeola Customer Forum" forum, which includes Retro Game Reviews, has been archived and is now read-only. You cannot post here or create a new thread or review on this forum.
i am no big fan of the usa but we would better off joining america than europe. we are the mugs europe the ones who are ripped off and get little in return apart from insults a frances illegal immagrants. Lets face it europe is greedy and only answers to germany: we don't even have a common language. In accepting the euro we will in the end become part of the united states of europe and have all our economies tied together. I am patriotic and would find it hard to accept this situation when our country is imperfect anyway. We would be better off joining the usa we have a common language and the current government sucks up to the us so much anyway that we'd be better of becoming the 51st state! Personally i would rather stay independent
Page:
misterhappy wrote:
UK industries like the car manufacturing industry and to a large
> extent agriculture are on the verge of extinction because in the case of the
> former the strong pound makes UK exports too expensive to compete abroad, and in
> the case of the latter, the strong pound means that farmers cannot compete with
> cheaper imports.
Farmers are bleeding this country dry. The simple fact is that their produce is too expensive, there are too many of them and they seem to think that they have the right to guaranteed prices. Well they do not, no other industry does so why should they ? If the pound is strong thats no reason to convert to the weak Euro, as when companies want to trade with other non european countries the Euro is way too weak.
>You may not like the idea of the Euro, but if
> you are patriotic then maybe you should think long-term for a bit. Staying out
> of the Euro could be even worse than joining it.
I am thinking long term. The news people have made a point of saying that the Euro is hte biggest currency since the ones the Romans had. Look what happened to Rome...now thats long term thinking lol :) Seriously, staying out of the Euro is the BEST thing we as a country can do.
Argentina has never been a stable
> economy, decades ago it pegged its currency to the dollar, and though this
> proveided short term gains, it has wrecked the economy and yet they still
> persisted in keeping the policy.
I doubt a war in the Falklands helped much either, the resources on the Falklands were one of the real reasons Argentina invaded and why we retook it so rapidly. It is dangerous to join a weak economy, as actions have to be taken to prop up that economy.
> The Euro will not admit weak economies for one
> simple reason, it is in no one's interests to let in a country whose economy is
> completely out of sync with the rest. The idea is that once a country has met
> the requirements, their economy is essentially the same as the rest of the
> economies.
"the idea" is the point of what Im saying. The Europeans are great at ideas and reports, and "in theory's", but when it comes down to reality their ideals fall short. Britains GDP and manufacturing output currently beats Germany, that country was once Europes strongest manufacturer. Yet we arent part of the Euro...strange that.
>The Euro will mean that trade is made easier. As much as you may
> hate the idea, trade is crucial. Trade is what raises living standards. Trade
> allows countries like Britain to punch above their weight.
I suggest that it is European countries like failing Germany, Italy e.t.c that need this currency as an equaliser, not us. We can "punch above our weight" already. Trade is important but the majority of our valuable goods come from internal or non european sources. American and asian imports are what makes the majority of most peoples purchases.
> I won't go into the
> economics of it but even if Germany has the potential to produce more of
> everything than Britain, there is still the incentive to trade between the two.
Well seeing as Britain is producing more than Germany anyway.....
> The Euro will facilitate that trade. The euro will result in more things being
> traded. Your standard of living will improve if the UK joins the
> Euro.
Through trade you enjoy a wider choice of goods at a cheaper price. If
> the Euro comes to Britain, you will enjoy an even wider choice and even lower
> prices.
Yes, but not through European trade. What import entertainment goods can retailers command high prices for ? American and asian imports. Region 1 DVDS, american artists, manga merchandise, japanese games and consoles, american books, Europe gets the same as we do. America, and to some extent Japan, are our cultural brothers/sisters. Ask any Human Geography student what the 3 main financial nodes of this planet are - New York, London, Tokyo. None are in Europe, so like it or not the Europeans can't cut us out. BTW, you've carefully avoided my earlier points about the bad dealings we have had with europe regarding defence, foreign aid and agriculture.
UK industries like the car manufacturing industry and to a large
> extent agriculture are on the verge of extinction because in the case of the
> former the strong pound makes UK exports too expensive to compete abroad, and in
> the case of the latter, the strong pound means that farmers cannot compete with
> cheaper imports.
Farmers are bleeding this country dry. The simple fact is that their produce is too expensive, there are too many of them and they seem to think that they have the right to guaranteed prices. Well they do not, no other industry does so why should they ? If the pound is strong thats no reason to convert to the weak Euro, as when companies want to trade with other non european countries the Euro is way too weak.
>You may not like the idea of the Euro, but if
> you are patriotic then maybe you should think long-term for a bit. Staying out
> of the Euro could be even worse than joining it.
I am thinking long term. The news people have made a point of saying that the Euro is hte biggest currency since the ones the Romans had. Look what happened to Rome...now thats long term thinking lol :) Seriously, staying out of the Euro is the BEST thing we as a country can do.
Argentina has never been a stable
> economy, decades ago it pegged its currency to the dollar, and though this
> proveided short term gains, it has wrecked the economy and yet they still
> persisted in keeping the policy.
I doubt a war in the Falklands helped much either, the resources on the Falklands were one of the real reasons Argentina invaded and why we retook it so rapidly. It is dangerous to join a weak economy, as actions have to be taken to prop up that economy.
> The Euro will not admit weak economies for one
> simple reason, it is in no one's interests to let in a country whose economy is
> completely out of sync with the rest. The idea is that once a country has met
> the requirements, their economy is essentially the same as the rest of the
> economies.
"the idea" is the point of what Im saying. The Europeans are great at ideas and reports, and "in theory's", but when it comes down to reality their ideals fall short. Britains GDP and manufacturing output currently beats Germany, that country was once Europes strongest manufacturer. Yet we arent part of the Euro...strange that.
>The Euro will mean that trade is made easier. As much as you may
> hate the idea, trade is crucial. Trade is what raises living standards. Trade
> allows countries like Britain to punch above their weight.
I suggest that it is European countries like failing Germany, Italy e.t.c that need this currency as an equaliser, not us. We can "punch above our weight" already. Trade is important but the majority of our valuable goods come from internal or non european sources. American and asian imports are what makes the majority of most peoples purchases.
> I won't go into the
> economics of it but even if Germany has the potential to produce more of
> everything than Britain, there is still the incentive to trade between the two.
Well seeing as Britain is producing more than Germany anyway.....
> The Euro will facilitate that trade. The euro will result in more things being
> traded. Your standard of living will improve if the UK joins the
> Euro.
Through trade you enjoy a wider choice of goods at a cheaper price. If
> the Euro comes to Britain, you will enjoy an even wider choice and even lower
> prices.
Yes, but not through European trade. What import entertainment goods can retailers command high prices for ? American and asian imports. Region 1 DVDS, american artists, manga merchandise, japanese games and consoles, american books, Europe gets the same as we do. America, and to some extent Japan, are our cultural brothers/sisters. Ask any Human Geography student what the 3 main financial nodes of this planet are - New York, London, Tokyo. None are in Europe, so like it or not the Europeans can't cut us out. BTW, you've carefully avoided my earlier points about the bad dealings we have had with europe regarding defence, foreign aid and agriculture.
When will you learn...
Europe is a good thing.
Inclusivity is good.
If you love this country so much then spare a thought for its future. If we don't join the Euro then companies will leave the UK and move into mainland Euro-country. UK industries like the car manufacturing industry and to a large extent agriculture are on the verge of extinction because in the case of the former the strong pound makes UK exports too expensive to compete abroad, and in the case of the latter, the strong pound means that farmers cannot compete with cheaper imports.
If we do not join the Euro then we will face these same problems. If we do not join the Euro then sure we can wave our flags and feel British but then the rot will set in, and we will face high unemployment, low growth, and our balance of payments will still be knackered. If we don't join the Euro then all the good economic work that the government has done will be meaningless because like it or not, the advent of the Euro means that in mainland Europe competiton just got better and if the UK can't up its game then it will face economic meltdown.
You may not like the idea of the Euro, but if you are patriotic then maybe you should think long-term for a bit. Staying out of the Euro could be even worse than joining it.
Stranger in Paradise, you wrote:
Yes, I know there are conditions for entry but a stable economy is no guarantee of stability - look at Argentina
Argentina has never been a stable economy, decades ago it pegged its currency to the dollar, and though this proveided short term gains, it has wrecked the economy and yet they still persisted in keeping the policy. The Euro will not admit weak economies for one simple reason, it is in no one's interests to let in a country whose economy is completely out of sync with the rest. The idea is that once a country has met the requirements, their economy is essentially the same as the rest of the economies.
The Euro will mean that trade is made easier. As much as you may hate the idea, trade is crucial. Trade is what raises living standards. Trade allows countries like Britain to punch above their weight. I won't go into the economics of it but even if Germany has the potential to produce more of everything than Britain, there is still the incentive to trade between the two. The Euro will facilitate that trade. The euro will result in more things being traded. Your standard of living will improve if the UK joins the Euro.
Through trade you enjoy a wider choice of goods at a cheaper price. If the Euro comes to Britain, you will enjoy an even wider choice and even lower prices.
Europe is a good thing.
Inclusivity is good.
If you love this country so much then spare a thought for its future. If we don't join the Euro then companies will leave the UK and move into mainland Euro-country. UK industries like the car manufacturing industry and to a large extent agriculture are on the verge of extinction because in the case of the former the strong pound makes UK exports too expensive to compete abroad, and in the case of the latter, the strong pound means that farmers cannot compete with cheaper imports.
If we do not join the Euro then we will face these same problems. If we do not join the Euro then sure we can wave our flags and feel British but then the rot will set in, and we will face high unemployment, low growth, and our balance of payments will still be knackered. If we don't join the Euro then all the good economic work that the government has done will be meaningless because like it or not, the advent of the Euro means that in mainland Europe competiton just got better and if the UK can't up its game then it will face economic meltdown.
You may not like the idea of the Euro, but if you are patriotic then maybe you should think long-term for a bit. Staying out of the Euro could be even worse than joining it.
Stranger in Paradise, you wrote:
Yes, I know there are conditions for entry but a stable economy is no guarantee of stability - look at Argentina
Argentina has never been a stable economy, decades ago it pegged its currency to the dollar, and though this proveided short term gains, it has wrecked the economy and yet they still persisted in keeping the policy. The Euro will not admit weak economies for one simple reason, it is in no one's interests to let in a country whose economy is completely out of sync with the rest. The idea is that once a country has met the requirements, their economy is essentially the same as the rest of the economies.
The Euro will mean that trade is made easier. As much as you may hate the idea, trade is crucial. Trade is what raises living standards. Trade allows countries like Britain to punch above their weight. I won't go into the economics of it but even if Germany has the potential to produce more of everything than Britain, there is still the incentive to trade between the two. The Euro will facilitate that trade. The euro will result in more things being traded. Your standard of living will improve if the UK joins the Euro.
Through trade you enjoy a wider choice of goods at a cheaper price. If the Euro comes to Britain, you will enjoy an even wider choice and even lower prices.
i'd much rather britain not join the euro not because i dislike other european countries (well maybe except france and germany) hell i've even just moved to italy, i'd rather have our little country of ours which has got on pretty well over the years without being part of the united states of europe be able to make it's own decisions about the country itself. we're not even part of the euro yet and already brussels can decide what measurement we have our vegetables in. now if little things like that can happen imagine the much bigger things that will happen if we joined. we'd have absolutely no say in our country and our democratic way of life would be ruined. and what does it say about the euro that it needs britain with the stable pound to join to strengthen the currency. we're much better staying out of it and i agree with the original poster that we'd be much better joining up with North America, least we can actually trust them instead of those french and germans
Reaper[oV] wrote:
WHY? Europe has given us so much through history -
> I'm not a historian, I don't profess to be, but it was Europeans originally that
> brought some civilisation to our previously barbarian nation. The hundreds of
> years of invasions and contact without "outsiders" shaped our country
> to be what it is (particularly our language, its variety and diversity, and as
> such its popularity, is thanks to these influences from which we have stolen
> words). We've had wars, yes, but our nation without Europe would be a shadow of
> what it is now - surely it's better to forge links with these other countries
> than exclude ourselves, leaving us open to future conflict
Well if you want to start tracing origins of a nation that far... it was people from what is now Africa that first came to Europe anyway. We can forge links without condeming our selves to this stupid currency. Future conflict ? I don't think so - especially as US-UK relations make it a VERY bad idea to threaten the UK.
Yes, eastern Europe is a different issue, but as
> has been pointed out, they will have to prove their economies more stable than
> they currently are. It's true that they can collapse, although this is just as
> true of more developed countries. I believe the idea of the Euro in the long run
> was to make it a global currency like the dollar, accepted anywhere, and I don't
> believe a target like that would be set without some consideration going in to
> the repecussions of a collapse somewhere.
You cannot protect any currency like that. The only way to do it is to make sure that you're nation is strong enough to resist any bad events. There must be faith in a nation for its currency to be valued. As for it being a global currency... dont hold your breath on that one. America is the hegemonic power of this time and Europe needs to do something pretty drastic to beat that.
>Why? International
> relations aren't exclusive, and there's no conflict that I'm aware of betwene
> europe and north america that would force us to choose between them. You don't
> suppose that america might be better equipped to offer help than any individual
> European nation? However, should europe be united then it will, as a whole, be
> in a better position for support. Equally, is making a point of removing
> ourselves from such a large alliance of nations a wise thing to do?
They arent exclusive - but many european countries are very much anti US and resist American policies and suggestions. The Euro army is another stupid idea of Europe, oine that isnt needed because of NATO anyway... but the French, Germans e.t.c keep on moaning about it and want to do it. It may be a large alliance but it is an ineffective squabbling one with a vast beuracracy. Decisions take too long. In 1999 the US pushed, along with the UK, to enter the Balkans and halt the killing - but European members of the UN held up a decision..so NATO, under US/UK leadership, entered the conflict immediately. European as an alliance is great at talking but short on action and decision.
Are we forever going to hold
> WW2 against Europe? It was over 50 years ago now, yet we can't lay it to rest
> and continue to let it influence our international relations in the following
> century? It was not a typical example of Europe, governments, militaries and
> people change, and we need to accept this.
The Falklands was not 50 years ago ! Weak leadership, poor defences, lack of foresight, refusing to listen to warnings - all these and more marked the run up to WW2. You say to forget about this, but earlier we are supposed to remember how, hundreds of years ago, europeans invaded us ? Thats double standards. If countires change then whhy does France still continue to refuse to help us with the problem of illegal aliens entering the Channel Tunnel ? Why did Greece hold 12 YK photographers on ridiculous spying charges ? This is the new century of co operation ???
Great..so we sit and watch Europe allying. But
> then, who needs a large combined army formed by the rest of we'll be fine with
> our few stealth planes courtesy of the Good Ol' USA.
Too right. The Gulf War proved that strength of numbers is beaten easily by superior technology. Large numbers of troops are inefficient and cannot guarantee success easily. The battlefield of tomorrow needs superior technology, stealth, special forces and advanced weaponry. The US/UK beats Europe on all of these. Why on earth would we ever come into conflict with Europe anyway, if they're such a nice bunch of people over there ? :) A Euro army risks a second Cold War with a fragile Russia.
So shouldn't this be taken as an
> opportunity to bring us closer to them and prove that we're not as bad as all
> that, or are we happy just to let this continue, hating our closest neighbours
> and choosing America over them, a country with just as many faults that could be
> picked out.
What faults ? Why should we seek to show them what we are like when it is Europe who has wronged us ?
I
> don't think you can take immigrants as a typical foreigner's attitude to
> Britain, they're looking at it as a place for shelter, not a place for a
> holiday. People will still come. Others, with mindsets such as your own, will
> flatly refuse to have anything to do with us. Yes, pop culture is imported from
> outside of europe, what about the hundreds of years of history within Europe
> before that? The foundations of our country? Never mind that, because america
> gives us Slipknot..
Hundreds of years of European history have brought nothing but slavery, murder, civil war and all the other bad parts of history to the rest of the world. Europe introduced its own culture to America, despite the fact that it had its own already, but that didnt matter because the Europeans knew their culture was better ! So they killed any native american who stood in their way, by gun, disease and slavery. Europeans on mainland Europe still have this false idea that their culture is superior - Paris being one example - well it wasnt in the 16th century and isnt now either !
I'm
> aware that europe isn't the whole world, but how independant do you want us to
> be? We -need- other countries, however much you may hate to admit it, we can't
> exist as a nation isolated from others. We wouldn't be tied as you make out,
> it'd be creating new links, not commiting ourselves to becoming integrated in to
> Europe and having to submit to all of their ways..
Independence is the one thing that all countrie strive for. In America during the 18th century, World War 2 in the 20th century, the Balkans, the Gulf - states want to be free and able to govern themselves, decide their own laws, have their own currency, because this individuality forges a nation. Im not suggesting isolation and haven't, but Europe should certainly be kept at arms length. Whichever way you look at it, a small part of our cultural identity will die if we join the Euro. Joining would also deeply divide an already divided country. If you think their is a problem with anti Europe sentiment now then it'll be 1000 times worse come entry to the Euro. Generations of people from this country have fought for independence, and over the years the UK has welcomed many other people from other nations to its shores and helped them, as it does today. The UK is currently seeing its highest involvement in overseas UN peacekeeping effort, humanitarian efforts and in toehr missions like Sierra Leone and Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. Around the world, in non european countries, we are forging links and a whole new set of people are seeing Britain as their friend. On the news, when the ISAF froce of UK troops arrived, the people, the children, were happy to see them and welcomed them, the same in Sierra Leone.
These are the links I prefer to see forged, lets, as a nation, do some good for a change rather than join a collection of pen pushers who see no further than Europes borders.
WHY? Europe has given us so much through history -
> I'm not a historian, I don't profess to be, but it was Europeans originally that
> brought some civilisation to our previously barbarian nation. The hundreds of
> years of invasions and contact without "outsiders" shaped our country
> to be what it is (particularly our language, its variety and diversity, and as
> such its popularity, is thanks to these influences from which we have stolen
> words). We've had wars, yes, but our nation without Europe would be a shadow of
> what it is now - surely it's better to forge links with these other countries
> than exclude ourselves, leaving us open to future conflict
Well if you want to start tracing origins of a nation that far... it was people from what is now Africa that first came to Europe anyway. We can forge links without condeming our selves to this stupid currency. Future conflict ? I don't think so - especially as US-UK relations make it a VERY bad idea to threaten the UK.
Yes, eastern Europe is a different issue, but as
> has been pointed out, they will have to prove their economies more stable than
> they currently are. It's true that they can collapse, although this is just as
> true of more developed countries. I believe the idea of the Euro in the long run
> was to make it a global currency like the dollar, accepted anywhere, and I don't
> believe a target like that would be set without some consideration going in to
> the repecussions of a collapse somewhere.
You cannot protect any currency like that. The only way to do it is to make sure that you're nation is strong enough to resist any bad events. There must be faith in a nation for its currency to be valued. As for it being a global currency... dont hold your breath on that one. America is the hegemonic power of this time and Europe needs to do something pretty drastic to beat that.
>Why? International
> relations aren't exclusive, and there's no conflict that I'm aware of betwene
> europe and north america that would force us to choose between them. You don't
> suppose that america might be better equipped to offer help than any individual
> European nation? However, should europe be united then it will, as a whole, be
> in a better position for support. Equally, is making a point of removing
> ourselves from such a large alliance of nations a wise thing to do?
They arent exclusive - but many european countries are very much anti US and resist American policies and suggestions. The Euro army is another stupid idea of Europe, oine that isnt needed because of NATO anyway... but the French, Germans e.t.c keep on moaning about it and want to do it. It may be a large alliance but it is an ineffective squabbling one with a vast beuracracy. Decisions take too long. In 1999 the US pushed, along with the UK, to enter the Balkans and halt the killing - but European members of the UN held up a decision..so NATO, under US/UK leadership, entered the conflict immediately. European as an alliance is great at talking but short on action and decision.
Are we forever going to hold
> WW2 against Europe? It was over 50 years ago now, yet we can't lay it to rest
> and continue to let it influence our international relations in the following
> century? It was not a typical example of Europe, governments, militaries and
> people change, and we need to accept this.
The Falklands was not 50 years ago ! Weak leadership, poor defences, lack of foresight, refusing to listen to warnings - all these and more marked the run up to WW2. You say to forget about this, but earlier we are supposed to remember how, hundreds of years ago, europeans invaded us ? Thats double standards. If countires change then whhy does France still continue to refuse to help us with the problem of illegal aliens entering the Channel Tunnel ? Why did Greece hold 12 YK photographers on ridiculous spying charges ? This is the new century of co operation ???
Great..so we sit and watch Europe allying. But
> then, who needs a large combined army formed by the rest of we'll be fine with
> our few stealth planes courtesy of the Good Ol' USA.
Too right. The Gulf War proved that strength of numbers is beaten easily by superior technology. Large numbers of troops are inefficient and cannot guarantee success easily. The battlefield of tomorrow needs superior technology, stealth, special forces and advanced weaponry. The US/UK beats Europe on all of these. Why on earth would we ever come into conflict with Europe anyway, if they're such a nice bunch of people over there ? :) A Euro army risks a second Cold War with a fragile Russia.
So shouldn't this be taken as an
> opportunity to bring us closer to them and prove that we're not as bad as all
> that, or are we happy just to let this continue, hating our closest neighbours
> and choosing America over them, a country with just as many faults that could be
> picked out.
What faults ? Why should we seek to show them what we are like when it is Europe who has wronged us ?
I
> don't think you can take immigrants as a typical foreigner's attitude to
> Britain, they're looking at it as a place for shelter, not a place for a
> holiday. People will still come. Others, with mindsets such as your own, will
> flatly refuse to have anything to do with us. Yes, pop culture is imported from
> outside of europe, what about the hundreds of years of history within Europe
> before that? The foundations of our country? Never mind that, because america
> gives us Slipknot..
Hundreds of years of European history have brought nothing but slavery, murder, civil war and all the other bad parts of history to the rest of the world. Europe introduced its own culture to America, despite the fact that it had its own already, but that didnt matter because the Europeans knew their culture was better ! So they killed any native american who stood in their way, by gun, disease and slavery. Europeans on mainland Europe still have this false idea that their culture is superior - Paris being one example - well it wasnt in the 16th century and isnt now either !
I'm
> aware that europe isn't the whole world, but how independant do you want us to
> be? We -need- other countries, however much you may hate to admit it, we can't
> exist as a nation isolated from others. We wouldn't be tied as you make out,
> it'd be creating new links, not commiting ourselves to becoming integrated in to
> Europe and having to submit to all of their ways..
Independence is the one thing that all countrie strive for. In America during the 18th century, World War 2 in the 20th century, the Balkans, the Gulf - states want to be free and able to govern themselves, decide their own laws, have their own currency, because this individuality forges a nation. Im not suggesting isolation and haven't, but Europe should certainly be kept at arms length. Whichever way you look at it, a small part of our cultural identity will die if we join the Euro. Joining would also deeply divide an already divided country. If you think their is a problem with anti Europe sentiment now then it'll be 1000 times worse come entry to the Euro. Generations of people from this country have fought for independence, and over the years the UK has welcomed many other people from other nations to its shores and helped them, as it does today. The UK is currently seeing its highest involvement in overseas UN peacekeeping effort, humanitarian efforts and in toehr missions like Sierra Leone and Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. Around the world, in non european countries, we are forging links and a whole new set of people are seeing Britain as their friend. On the news, when the ISAF froce of UK troops arrived, the people, the children, were happy to see them and welcomed them, the same in Sierra Leone.
These are the links I prefer to see forged, lets, as a nation, do some good for a change rather than join a collection of pen pushers who see no further than Europes borders.
Stranger In Paradise wrote:
Like which nations
> ?
The day that Enghland becomes part of a United Europe is the day I start
> looking into emigrating elsewhere !
WHY? Europe has given us so much through history - I'm not a historian, I don't profess to be, but it was Europeans originally that brought some civilisation to our previously barbarian nation. The hundreds of years of invasions and contact without "outsiders" shaped our country to be what it is (particularly our language, its variety and diversity, and as such its popularity, is thanks to these influences from which we have stolen words). We've had wars, yes, but our nation without Europe would be a shadow of what it is now - surely it's better to forge links with these other countries than exclude ourselves, leaving us open to future conflict
It is okay saying "join Europe"
> but what actually is Europe ? The new currency doesnt actually cover all of
> Europe, just the 'nice' parts. How about Bosnia, Yugoslavia and the former
> soviet states ? Do we, as a country, want to be tied to a currency which should,
> in theory, one day include these unstable countries.
Yes, eastern Europe is a different issue, but as has been pointed out, they will have to prove their economies more stable than they currently are. It's true that they can collapse, although this is just as true of more developed countries. I believe the idea of the Euro in the long run was to make it a global currency like the dollar, accepted anywhere, and I don't believe a target like that would be set without some consideration going in to the repecussions of a collapse somewhere.
Joining Europe would force the UK to almost abandon its special relation
> with the USA, a country which has helped us way more than any other European
> state.
Why? International relations aren't exclusive, and there's no conflict that I'm aware of betwene europe and north america that would force us to choose between them. You don't suppose that america might be better equipped to offer help than any individual European nation? However, should europe be united then it will, as a whole, be in a better position for support. Equally, is making a point of removing ourselves from such a large alliance of nations a wise thing to do?
For instance, during the Falklands America supplied stinger missiles to
> us, what did France do ? Sold Exocet missiles to the Argentinians ! Which
> country surrendered rather than fight during WW2, and subsequently dumped the
> Germans at our front door ? France.
Are we forever going to hold WW2 against Europe? It was over 50 years ago now, yet we can't lay it to rest and continue to let it influence our international relations in the following century? It was not a typical example of Europe, governments, militaries and people change, and we need to accept this.
8 european nations tied in with the Eurofighter project have messed
> around for so long that its been declared ineffective by some RAF
> commanders...not that it matters as the USA has offered us the superior JSF -
> which will be the first RAF plane with stealth capability.
Great..so we sit and watch Europe allying. But then, who needs a large combined army formed by the rest of we'll be fine with our few stealth planes courtesy of the Good Ol' USA.
Star Wars, Foot and
> Mouth, Salmonella, Immigration.... on all these things the rest of Europe has
> gone against Britain.
So shouldn't this be taken as an opportunity to bring us closer to them and prove that we're not as bad as all that, or are we happy just to let this continue, hating our closest neighbours and choosing America over them, a country with just as many faults that could be picked out.
Don't think so. The recent arrest of illegal immigrants in the
> Channel Tunnel suggests that people wil still come to Britain, legally and
> illegally. The channel tunnel is one link, as are the countries numerous
> airports. In fact a lot of popular culture is drawn from America and other
> countries outside of Europe, such as India and Japan.
I don't think you can take immigrants as a typical foreigner's attitude to Britain, they're looking at it as a place for shelter, not a place for a holiday. People will still come. Others, with mindsets such as your own, will flatly refuse to have anything to do with us. Yes, pop culture is imported from outside of europe, what about the hundreds of years of history within Europe before that? The foundations of our country? Never mind that, because america gives us Slipknot..
Not joining europe isnt removing international
> ties, Europe isnt the whole world ! It just means remaining and independent
> state rather than one tied to a mass of toehr nations.
I'm aware that europe isn't the whole world, but how independant do you want us to be? We -need- other countries, however much you may hate to admit it, we can't exist as a nation isolated from others. We wouldn't be tied as you make out, it'd be creating new links, not commiting ourselves to becoming integrated in to Europe and having to submit to all of their ways..
Like which nations
> ?
The day that Enghland becomes part of a United Europe is the day I start
> looking into emigrating elsewhere !
WHY? Europe has given us so much through history - I'm not a historian, I don't profess to be, but it was Europeans originally that brought some civilisation to our previously barbarian nation. The hundreds of years of invasions and contact without "outsiders" shaped our country to be what it is (particularly our language, its variety and diversity, and as such its popularity, is thanks to these influences from which we have stolen words). We've had wars, yes, but our nation without Europe would be a shadow of what it is now - surely it's better to forge links with these other countries than exclude ourselves, leaving us open to future conflict
It is okay saying "join Europe"
> but what actually is Europe ? The new currency doesnt actually cover all of
> Europe, just the 'nice' parts. How about Bosnia, Yugoslavia and the former
> soviet states ? Do we, as a country, want to be tied to a currency which should,
> in theory, one day include these unstable countries.
Yes, eastern Europe is a different issue, but as has been pointed out, they will have to prove their economies more stable than they currently are. It's true that they can collapse, although this is just as true of more developed countries. I believe the idea of the Euro in the long run was to make it a global currency like the dollar, accepted anywhere, and I don't believe a target like that would be set without some consideration going in to the repecussions of a collapse somewhere.
Joining Europe would force the UK to almost abandon its special relation
> with the USA, a country which has helped us way more than any other European
> state.
Why? International relations aren't exclusive, and there's no conflict that I'm aware of betwene europe and north america that would force us to choose between them. You don't suppose that america might be better equipped to offer help than any individual European nation? However, should europe be united then it will, as a whole, be in a better position for support. Equally, is making a point of removing ourselves from such a large alliance of nations a wise thing to do?
For instance, during the Falklands America supplied stinger missiles to
> us, what did France do ? Sold Exocet missiles to the Argentinians ! Which
> country surrendered rather than fight during WW2, and subsequently dumped the
> Germans at our front door ? France.
Are we forever going to hold WW2 against Europe? It was over 50 years ago now, yet we can't lay it to rest and continue to let it influence our international relations in the following century? It was not a typical example of Europe, governments, militaries and people change, and we need to accept this.
8 european nations tied in with the Eurofighter project have messed
> around for so long that its been declared ineffective by some RAF
> commanders...not that it matters as the USA has offered us the superior JSF -
> which will be the first RAF plane with stealth capability.
Great..so we sit and watch Europe allying. But then, who needs a large combined army formed by the rest of we'll be fine with our few stealth planes courtesy of the Good Ol' USA.
Star Wars, Foot and
> Mouth, Salmonella, Immigration.... on all these things the rest of Europe has
> gone against Britain.
So shouldn't this be taken as an opportunity to bring us closer to them and prove that we're not as bad as all that, or are we happy just to let this continue, hating our closest neighbours and choosing America over them, a country with just as many faults that could be picked out.
Don't think so. The recent arrest of illegal immigrants in the
> Channel Tunnel suggests that people wil still come to Britain, legally and
> illegally. The channel tunnel is one link, as are the countries numerous
> airports. In fact a lot of popular culture is drawn from America and other
> countries outside of Europe, such as India and Japan.
I don't think you can take immigrants as a typical foreigner's attitude to Britain, they're looking at it as a place for shelter, not a place for a holiday. People will still come. Others, with mindsets such as your own, will flatly refuse to have anything to do with us. Yes, pop culture is imported from outside of europe, what about the hundreds of years of history within Europe before that? The foundations of our country? Never mind that, because america gives us Slipknot..
Not joining europe isnt removing international
> ties, Europe isnt the whole world ! It just means remaining and independent
> state rather than one tied to a mass of toehr nations.
I'm aware that europe isn't the whole world, but how independant do you want us to be? We -need- other countries, however much you may hate to admit it, we can't exist as a nation isolated from others. We wouldn't be tied as you make out, it'd be creating new links, not commiting ourselves to becoming integrated in to Europe and having to submit to all of their ways..
They dont just let anyone into the Euro. I'm not sure exactly sure how it works, but the country in question will have to pass certain Economic tests before they can even think about joining.
Reaper[oV] wrote:
> Sigh...what's wrong with a united europe? Other than the rest of the countries
> will be subjected to our xenophobic youth, who are perfectly happy to be
> patriotic and mouth off about how England is great, but are never capable of
> accepting that many other European nations are equally (and in my opinion more)
> great themselves.
Like which nations ? The day that Enghland becomes part of a United Europe is the day I start looking into emigrating elsewhere ! It is okay saying "join Europe" but what actually is Europe ? The new currency doesnt actually cover all of Europe, just the 'nice' parts. How about Bosnia, Yugoslavia and the former soviet states ? Do we, as a country, want to be tied to a currency which should, in theory, one day include these unstable countries. When NATO took action in the Balkans in 1999 there was a general uproar about British involvement, yet now many want to be involved in Europe ! Is it wise to be part of a currency tied to so many nations ? On 9/11 the US dollar plunged, and all it will take is for one similar event in any Euro country to see a repeat of that on the Euro's value. Joining Europe would force the UK to almost abandon its special relation with the USA, a country which has helped us way more than any other European state. For instance, during the Falklands America supplied stinger missiles to us, what did France do ? Sold Exocet missiles to the Argentinians ! Which country surrendered rather than fight during WW2, and subsequently dumped the Germans at our front door ? France. Germany and other countries refused to buy our meat during the BSE scare, even when it was proven to be from unaffected herds. 8 european nations tied in with the Eurofighter project have messed around for so long that its been declared ineffective by some RAF commanders...not that it matters as the USA has offered us the superior JSF - which will be the first RAF plane with stealth capability. Star Wars, Foot and Mouth, Salmonella, Immigration.... on all these things the rest of Europe has gone against Britain.
>?If we now start to isolate ourselves as a little
> island seperate from any continental identity, we wont be >able to continue
> drawing on the cultures of other nations to better our >own.
Don't think so. The recent arrest of illegal immigrants in the Channel Tunnel suggests that people wil still come to Britain, legally and illegally. The channel tunnel is one link, as are the countries numerous airports. In fact a lot of popular culture is drawn from America and other countries outside of Europe, such as India and Japan.
>What a boring
> nation of people we'd become by removing international ties and staying in
> England.
Not joining europe isnt removing international ties, Europe isnt the whole world ! It just means remaining and independent state rather than one tied to a mass of toehr nations.
> Sigh...what's wrong with a united europe? Other than the rest of the countries
> will be subjected to our xenophobic youth, who are perfectly happy to be
> patriotic and mouth off about how England is great, but are never capable of
> accepting that many other European nations are equally (and in my opinion more)
> great themselves.
Like which nations ? The day that Enghland becomes part of a United Europe is the day I start looking into emigrating elsewhere ! It is okay saying "join Europe" but what actually is Europe ? The new currency doesnt actually cover all of Europe, just the 'nice' parts. How about Bosnia, Yugoslavia and the former soviet states ? Do we, as a country, want to be tied to a currency which should, in theory, one day include these unstable countries. When NATO took action in the Balkans in 1999 there was a general uproar about British involvement, yet now many want to be involved in Europe ! Is it wise to be part of a currency tied to so many nations ? On 9/11 the US dollar plunged, and all it will take is for one similar event in any Euro country to see a repeat of that on the Euro's value. Joining Europe would force the UK to almost abandon its special relation with the USA, a country which has helped us way more than any other European state. For instance, during the Falklands America supplied stinger missiles to us, what did France do ? Sold Exocet missiles to the Argentinians ! Which country surrendered rather than fight during WW2, and subsequently dumped the Germans at our front door ? France. Germany and other countries refused to buy our meat during the BSE scare, even when it was proven to be from unaffected herds. 8 european nations tied in with the Eurofighter project have messed around for so long that its been declared ineffective by some RAF commanders...not that it matters as the USA has offered us the superior JSF - which will be the first RAF plane with stealth capability. Star Wars, Foot and Mouth, Salmonella, Immigration.... on all these things the rest of Europe has gone against Britain.
>?If we now start to isolate ourselves as a little
> island seperate from any continental identity, we wont be >able to continue
> drawing on the cultures of other nations to better our >own.
Don't think so. The recent arrest of illegal immigrants in the Channel Tunnel suggests that people wil still come to Britain, legally and illegally. The channel tunnel is one link, as are the countries numerous airports. In fact a lot of popular culture is drawn from America and other countries outside of Europe, such as India and Japan.
>What a boring
> nation of people we'd become by removing international ties and staying in
> England.
Not joining europe isnt removing international ties, Europe isnt the whole world ! It just means remaining and independent state rather than one tied to a mass of toehr nations.
Sigh...what's wrong with a united europe? Other than the rest of the countries will be subjected to our xenophobic youth, who are perfectly happy to be patriotic and mouth off about how England is great, but are never capable of accepting that many other European nations are equally (and in my opinion more) great themselves.
Why? Because other countries are different? I'd hate to see all of this generation grow up with the opinion that England is the best and we have nothing to learn from other countries. We do. We already have a lot of foreign influences, whether it's acknowledged or not, and our country wouldn't be the same without them. If we now start to isolate ourselves as a little island seperate from any continental identity, we wont be able to continue drawing on the cultures of other nations to better our own.
What a boring nation of people we'd become by removing international ties and staying in England. I'm not saying that this is true just of children, nor all of them; I'd hate to be put in a generalised heading of "kids" just for being 14 myself. However, it is true that they/we are easily influenced by family and the media, and will often shout out their views without much to back it up.
Why? Because other countries are different? I'd hate to see all of this generation grow up with the opinion that England is the best and we have nothing to learn from other countries. We do. We already have a lot of foreign influences, whether it's acknowledged or not, and our country wouldn't be the same without them. If we now start to isolate ourselves as a little island seperate from any continental identity, we wont be able to continue drawing on the cultures of other nations to better our own.
What a boring nation of people we'd become by removing international ties and staying in England. I'm not saying that this is true just of children, nor all of them; I'd hate to be put in a generalised heading of "kids" just for being 14 myself. However, it is true that they/we are easily influenced by family and the media, and will often shout out their views without much to back it up.
Page: