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Games have come on a long way, down a winding path from simple bats 'n' balls to huge summons which have been lavishly animated over several hours, and stories which have their own writers. But with the 'wonders' of the mass media, it seems truly inspiring games have been and gone unnoticed as the publisher has not advertised or even shown much of a completely original game, whilst sequels to highly popular franchises, with little ingenuity or originality, are plastered across newspapers, gaming magazines and television screens. All of the games which this industry requires more of are seemingly disappearing without a trace, and are being extremely underrated. On the other side of the spectrum, there are games which have been given rave previews through initial screens, 'carefully picked' video sequences, and the fact they continue a first party/popular series of games.
A prime example of a game being over hyped (or so I believe) are Metal Gear Solid 2 : Sons of Liberty. Many a month were spent speculating how great this game would be. And it was good. Just not anywhere near as great as was predicted. The cut scenes were, following for MGS on PSX, still far too long, and if that wasn't annoying enough, many people got put off by the fact that you barely got to play as Snake, but Raiden, and many people branded him 'wimpy' with his floppy hair.. If you were a fairly good gamer, with a deep hate of storyline, you'd probably finish it in 5-6 hours. Having felt they had not milked the game enough by charging 40 quid for 6 (non-story) hours (ironically, the game plummeted in price after one or two months, but anyway) they announce MGS2 : Substance. This is essentially the original game, with 300 new missions. Why, however, did they not release this originally? If they had, I probably wouldn't be moaning so much. Good one, Konami, you really know how to get the cash flowing in. May I note, as this point, that I personally thought MGS2 was fairly good, and I own a PS2, so don't go saying I'm a fanboy or some similar comment.
One other very over hyped game, I believe, is Super Mario Sunshine. Now, after typing that, I do expect harsh backlash, but I'll continue. I love the game, and have played it quite thoroughly, but something niggles at me, and I don't believe it lived up to everything it was meant to be. Although it would be unfair to compare it to Super Mario 64, which was undeniably a revolution in gaming, if you put it up against, say, Ratchet and Clank, it is better, but only marginally. This worries me, as Mario is, of course, Nintendo's lead franchise (although it is getting close between Link and himself), and has always dominated the platforming market. Mario Sunshine had 120 sprites to collect, yes, but only across 8 true levels? It seemed fairly low, considering Ratchet has 18 quite lush worlds to cross, all created, along with an excellent game, in a time span much shorter than SMS's. This is going to cause controversy, I know, but if Nintendo don't pull the series back up, other rival platformers may equal it. They still have time, however, to make things right. Hype, it seems, doesn't sell games : SMS didn't do as well as hope. But Zelda should quite easily fill the gap.
But it's not all doom, gloom and ridiculous hype : there are some superb games which are astoundingly original, but are extremely underrated, whether it be because of lack of publicity, unfortunate reviewers who just didn't like it, or little display in shops. My best example of this, and I'm sure many will agree, is Rez. This game, although boring an repetitive to some, is, to me, engrossing. The simplicity of it brings back what games should be about : the gameplay. Not stunning graphics, but gameplay. Of course, almost every game now made needs either great graphics or great sound + gameplay to possibly make a seller, and this has the latter. It linked and integrated the two into each other, with sound and shooting combined beautifully. The extras to unlock made the game replayable and added a nice polish to an already tidy game. I found it hard to understand why people couldn't enjoy / like this game. It is the 3rd best on my PS2. 3rd!
In my opinion, this over hype/underrate must be stopped. The market is being flooded. A game with a tiny snatch of originality is released and every other game in the genre made after this uses the same engine/battle system/control set-up. And even in this day of gaming where genre's are being mixed, the challenge remains that most gamers have played a game out of, well, most genres. So even after the mixing and matching of game types, gamers are, in the end, still left with a dull & repetitive game. And if it's not the challenges that are dull, almost every genre-mixer that succeeds on this front fails the final hurdle.
Trying to integrate 2 genres. This has been tried (and failed) many a time. Dark Summit (on most consoles) was abysmal, mixing a nasty story with bad snowboarding and pointless 'adventure' areas. If Nintendo, for example, aren't stupid enough to make Wave Race with an RPG, or if Sony isn't dumb enough to mix Frequency with a stealth shoot 'em up (extreme examples, I know, but it gets the point across) then why do people try?
Originality, that’s why. Good on '‘em, just don't mess it up. But ohh no, they do. That's my problem with it all. If genre's don’t mix (once again, Dark Summit) then don't try and make them. Use common sense, people! I worry for games like Super Monkey Ball 2 : the original being a great puzzler, but the sequel has a story. Is that wise? And if not, why is it there? Find the line between genius and stupidity, and don't cross it.
Of course, collaborations of genre have been successful in the past, and some great ones are on their way in the future. Metroid Prime, although having been given varying opinions from first screens, now looks set to become a best-seller. 10/10 in many magazines, it's here that maybe, just maybe, hype will be appropriate. One of the extremely rare examples, albeit. And in the past? Vib Ribbon wonderfully mixed music and design with a very, very basic platformer. The 2, once again, were successfully integrated. And notice ... another highly underrated game.
Maybe it's just me. But I think the industry should, right now, review what's in development. What are they making that will simply be a clone of a game which is in fact better than it? Probably most games they are making, except maybe for Nintendo (but even they are slowly going that way). Even a great like Pikmin is being given a sequel. A good sign, or a bad one. I'm not sure. I just want less hype, more original games and some challenges I've never had to face before.
And what do you think?
A prime example of a game being over hyped (or so I believe) are Metal Gear Solid 2 : Sons of Liberty. Many a month were spent speculating how great this game would be. And it was good. Just not anywhere near as great as was predicted. The cut scenes were, following for MGS on PSX, still far too long, and if that wasn't annoying enough, many people got put off by the fact that you barely got to play as Snake, but Raiden, and many people branded him 'wimpy' with his floppy hair.. If you were a fairly good gamer, with a deep hate of storyline, you'd probably finish it in 5-6 hours. Having felt they had not milked the game enough by charging 40 quid for 6 (non-story) hours (ironically, the game plummeted in price after one or two months, but anyway) they announce MGS2 : Substance. This is essentially the original game, with 300 new missions. Why, however, did they not release this originally? If they had, I probably wouldn't be moaning so much. Good one, Konami, you really know how to get the cash flowing in. May I note, as this point, that I personally thought MGS2 was fairly good, and I own a PS2, so don't go saying I'm a fanboy or some similar comment.
One other very over hyped game, I believe, is Super Mario Sunshine. Now, after typing that, I do expect harsh backlash, but I'll continue. I love the game, and have played it quite thoroughly, but something niggles at me, and I don't believe it lived up to everything it was meant to be. Although it would be unfair to compare it to Super Mario 64, which was undeniably a revolution in gaming, if you put it up against, say, Ratchet and Clank, it is better, but only marginally. This worries me, as Mario is, of course, Nintendo's lead franchise (although it is getting close between Link and himself), and has always dominated the platforming market. Mario Sunshine had 120 sprites to collect, yes, but only across 8 true levels? It seemed fairly low, considering Ratchet has 18 quite lush worlds to cross, all created, along with an excellent game, in a time span much shorter than SMS's. This is going to cause controversy, I know, but if Nintendo don't pull the series back up, other rival platformers may equal it. They still have time, however, to make things right. Hype, it seems, doesn't sell games : SMS didn't do as well as hope. But Zelda should quite easily fill the gap.
But it's not all doom, gloom and ridiculous hype : there are some superb games which are astoundingly original, but are extremely underrated, whether it be because of lack of publicity, unfortunate reviewers who just didn't like it, or little display in shops. My best example of this, and I'm sure many will agree, is Rez. This game, although boring an repetitive to some, is, to me, engrossing. The simplicity of it brings back what games should be about : the gameplay. Not stunning graphics, but gameplay. Of course, almost every game now made needs either great graphics or great sound + gameplay to possibly make a seller, and this has the latter. It linked and integrated the two into each other, with sound and shooting combined beautifully. The extras to unlock made the game replayable and added a nice polish to an already tidy game. I found it hard to understand why people couldn't enjoy / like this game. It is the 3rd best on my PS2. 3rd!
In my opinion, this over hype/underrate must be stopped. The market is being flooded. A game with a tiny snatch of originality is released and every other game in the genre made after this uses the same engine/battle system/control set-up. And even in this day of gaming where genre's are being mixed, the challenge remains that most gamers have played a game out of, well, most genres. So even after the mixing and matching of game types, gamers are, in the end, still left with a dull & repetitive game. And if it's not the challenges that are dull, almost every genre-mixer that succeeds on this front fails the final hurdle.
Trying to integrate 2 genres. This has been tried (and failed) many a time. Dark Summit (on most consoles) was abysmal, mixing a nasty story with bad snowboarding and pointless 'adventure' areas. If Nintendo, for example, aren't stupid enough to make Wave Race with an RPG, or if Sony isn't dumb enough to mix Frequency with a stealth shoot 'em up (extreme examples, I know, but it gets the point across) then why do people try?
Originality, that’s why. Good on '‘em, just don't mess it up. But ohh no, they do. That's my problem with it all. If genre's don’t mix (once again, Dark Summit) then don't try and make them. Use common sense, people! I worry for games like Super Monkey Ball 2 : the original being a great puzzler, but the sequel has a story. Is that wise? And if not, why is it there? Find the line between genius and stupidity, and don't cross it.
Of course, collaborations of genre have been successful in the past, and some great ones are on their way in the future. Metroid Prime, although having been given varying opinions from first screens, now looks set to become a best-seller. 10/10 in many magazines, it's here that maybe, just maybe, hype will be appropriate. One of the extremely rare examples, albeit. And in the past? Vib Ribbon wonderfully mixed music and design with a very, very basic platformer. The 2, once again, were successfully integrated. And notice ... another highly underrated game.
Maybe it's just me. But I think the industry should, right now, review what's in development. What are they making that will simply be a clone of a game which is in fact better than it? Probably most games they are making, except maybe for Nintendo (but even they are slowly going that way). Even a great like Pikmin is being given a sequel. A good sign, or a bad one. I'm not sure. I just want less hype, more original games and some challenges I've never had to face before.
And what do you think?
Hmm. This has given me an idea for a topic... Thanks for that! :D
"Find the line between genius and stupidity, and don't cross it."
Genius. And a phrase I shall nick in due time.
And good post... got me thinking, anyway.
Genius. And a phrase I shall nick in due time.
And good post... got me thinking, anyway.
Sfone wrote:
> I am just worried about Halo 2, I am anticipating this game, but too
> much hype has been introduced already, I can only worry that thismay
> spoil the game, just like MGS2.
I agree with you on JSR and also on this point. Halo gave so much hype and turned out to be great, but not *that* great. So what extent will be gone to to make Halo 2 better? Plus, spoiling the game, as you mention, is with hyped games, a huge risk and letdown.
> I am just worried about Halo 2, I am anticipating this game, but too
> much hype has been introduced already, I can only worry that thismay
> spoil the game, just like MGS2.
I agree with you on JSR and also on this point. Halo gave so much hype and turned out to be great, but not *that* great. So what extent will be gone to to make Halo 2 better? Plus, spoiling the game, as you mention, is with hyped games, a huge risk and letdown.
Very good post phuzzmeister general.
I agree with the all the views you put forward. Another prime example of underating a game is the Jet Set Radio series, a gaming masterpiece in its own right, which was one of the first to conduct cell shading successfully, however it was cruely ignored, while other franchises became more popular.
I am just worried about Halo 2, I am anticipating this game, but too much hype has been introduced already, I can only worry that thismay spoil the game, just like MGS2.
And again, excellent post.
I agree with the all the views you put forward. Another prime example of underating a game is the Jet Set Radio series, a gaming masterpiece in its own right, which was one of the first to conduct cell shading successfully, however it was cruely ignored, while other franchises became more popular.
I am just worried about Halo 2, I am anticipating this game, but too much hype has been introduced already, I can only worry that thismay spoil the game, just like MGS2.
And again, excellent post.
Cyclone wrote:
> A good excuse to rant about Deus Ex, Halo and TS2.
Another 3 perfect examples.
Also, for readers of gamesTM, look out for 'The Wit and Wisdom of Peter Molyneux'.
They have him to a tee.
> A good excuse to rant about Deus Ex, Halo and TS2.
Another 3 perfect examples.
Also, for readers of gamesTM, look out for 'The Wit and Wisdom of Peter Molyneux'.
They have him to a tee.
Very good post phuzzy! I wrote something similar a while back about this.
Games are frequently being hyped up and most of them wrongly so. More times than often, it's the games that barely received any hype or recognition that are the better, but underrated ones, which is blatant injustice. Different opinions may counter mine, but I clearly think that there are too may underrated games with a considerable amount of originality.
It's mostly sequels that deserve hype because they at least show improvement. But this means that developers should take the time to monitor flaws from the predecessor and input greater material, not release another disaster for the ongoing overhyped list.
Nevertheless, it seems to me as if the industry is improving on this matter.
Games are frequently being hyped up and most of them wrongly so. More times than often, it's the games that barely received any hype or recognition that are the better, but underrated ones, which is blatant injustice. Different opinions may counter mine, but I clearly think that there are too may underrated games with a considerable amount of originality.
It's mostly sequels that deserve hype because they at least show improvement. But this means that developers should take the time to monitor flaws from the predecessor and input greater material, not release another disaster for the ongoing overhyped list.
Nevertheless, it seems to me as if the industry is improving on this matter.
I did an overrated games thing.
A good excuse to rant about Deus Ex, Halo and TS2.
:D
A good excuse to rant about Deus Ex, Halo and TS2.
:D
I see what you mean about sequels being required, but I just hope that if there is to be a 2nd, 3rd or more of a game that they are constantly adding new and original things to it. 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' doesn't always apply - would anyone like to play a game which hasn't been improved upon in any way, shape or form? Sometimes risks have to be taken.
Thanks for reading, Ros :)
Thanks for reading, Ros :)
I think that there is a place for both Original games and seqels in gaming. Originality is all well and good, but when you have finished your favorite game and you are left wanting more, its the sequel you are loking forwards to.
I think a balance needs to be struck between originality and continuing a popular seris. I would not have been happy if having played the original Onimusha game, there was no sequal for me to play. I'm also looking forwards to the third game in the seris, but after that I hope they don't make anymore, as I think the seris would become stagnet.
Of course we need originality, but it doesn't nessasarily equal good games. And we can have grains of originality in sequals to. Of course churning out yet another sequal of a formulaic game that differs none from its predicesor is not often going to be a good thing, but people will but names that they know.
I think a balance needs to be struck between originality and continuing a popular seris. I would not have been happy if having played the original Onimusha game, there was no sequal for me to play. I'm also looking forwards to the third game in the seris, but after that I hope they don't make anymore, as I think the seris would become stagnet.
Of course we need originality, but it doesn't nessasarily equal good games. And we can have grains of originality in sequals to. Of course churning out yet another sequal of a formulaic game that differs none from its predicesor is not often going to be a good thing, but people will but names that they know.
Games have come on a long way, down a winding path from simple bats 'n' balls to huge summons which have been lavishly animated over several hours, and stories which have their own writers. But with the 'wonders' of the mass media, it seems truly inspiring games have been and gone unnoticed as the publisher has not advertised or even shown much of a completely original game, whilst sequels to highly popular franchises, with little ingenuity or originality, are plastered across newspapers, gaming magazines and television screens. All of the games which this industry requires more of are seemingly disappearing without a trace, and are being extremely underrated. On the other side of the spectrum, there are games which have been given rave previews through initial screens, 'carefully picked' video sequences, and the fact they continue a first party/popular series of games.
A prime example of a game being over hyped (or so I believe) are Metal Gear Solid 2 : Sons of Liberty. Many a month were spent speculating how great this game would be. And it was good. Just not anywhere near as great as was predicted. The cut scenes were, following for MGS on PSX, still far too long, and if that wasn't annoying enough, many people got put off by the fact that you barely got to play as Snake, but Raiden, and many people branded him 'wimpy' with his floppy hair.. If you were a fairly good gamer, with a deep hate of storyline, you'd probably finish it in 5-6 hours. Having felt they had not milked the game enough by charging 40 quid for 6 (non-story) hours (ironically, the game plummeted in price after one or two months, but anyway) they announce MGS2 : Substance. This is essentially the original game, with 300 new missions. Why, however, did they not release this originally? If they had, I probably wouldn't be moaning so much. Good one, Konami, you really know how to get the cash flowing in. May I note, as this point, that I personally thought MGS2 was fairly good, and I own a PS2, so don't go saying I'm a fanboy or some similar comment.
One other very over hyped game, I believe, is Super Mario Sunshine. Now, after typing that, I do expect harsh backlash, but I'll continue. I love the game, and have played it quite thoroughly, but something niggles at me, and I don't believe it lived up to everything it was meant to be. Although it would be unfair to compare it to Super Mario 64, which was undeniably a revolution in gaming, if you put it up against, say, Ratchet and Clank, it is better, but only marginally. This worries me, as Mario is, of course, Nintendo's lead franchise (although it is getting close between Link and himself), and has always dominated the platforming market. Mario Sunshine had 120 sprites to collect, yes, but only across 8 true levels? It seemed fairly low, considering Ratchet has 18 quite lush worlds to cross, all created, along with an excellent game, in a time span much shorter than SMS's. This is going to cause controversy, I know, but if Nintendo don't pull the series back up, other rival platformers may equal it. They still have time, however, to make things right. Hype, it seems, doesn't sell games : SMS didn't do as well as hope. But Zelda should quite easily fill the gap.
But it's not all doom, gloom and ridiculous hype : there are some superb games which are astoundingly original, but are extremely underrated, whether it be because of lack of publicity, unfortunate reviewers who just didn't like it, or little display in shops. My best example of this, and I'm sure many will agree, is Rez. This game, although boring an repetitive to some, is, to me, engrossing. The simplicity of it brings back what games should be about : the gameplay. Not stunning graphics, but gameplay. Of course, almost every game now made needs either great graphics or great sound + gameplay to possibly make a seller, and this has the latter. It linked and integrated the two into each other, with sound and shooting combined beautifully. The extras to unlock made the game replayable and added a nice polish to an already tidy game. I found it hard to understand why people couldn't enjoy / like this game. It is the 3rd best on my PS2. 3rd!
In my opinion, this over hype/underrate must be stopped. The market is being flooded. A game with a tiny snatch of originality is released and every other game in the genre made after this uses the same engine/battle system/control set-up. And even in this day of gaming where genre's are being mixed, the challenge remains that most gamers have played a game out of, well, most genres. So even after the mixing and matching of game types, gamers are, in the end, still left with a dull & repetitive game. And if it's not the challenges that are dull, almost every genre-mixer that succeeds on this front fails the final hurdle.
Trying to integrate 2 genres. This has been tried (and failed) many a time. Dark Summit (on most consoles) was abysmal, mixing a nasty story with bad snowboarding and pointless 'adventure' areas. If Nintendo, for example, aren't stupid enough to make Wave Race with an RPG, or if Sony isn't dumb enough to mix Frequency with a stealth shoot 'em up (extreme examples, I know, but it gets the point across) then why do people try?
Originality, that’s why. Good on '‘em, just don't mess it up. But ohh no, they do. That's my problem with it all. If genre's don’t mix (once again, Dark Summit) then don't try and make them. Use common sense, people! I worry for games like Super Monkey Ball 2 : the original being a great puzzler, but the sequel has a story. Is that wise? And if not, why is it there? Find the line between genius and stupidity, and don't cross it.
Of course, collaborations of genre have been successful in the past, and some great ones are on their way in the future. Metroid Prime, although having been given varying opinions from first screens, now looks set to become a best-seller. 10/10 in many magazines, it's here that maybe, just maybe, hype will be appropriate. One of the extremely rare examples, albeit. And in the past? Vib Ribbon wonderfully mixed music and design with a very, very basic platformer. The 2, once again, were successfully integrated. And notice ... another highly underrated game.
Maybe it's just me. But I think the industry should, right now, review what's in development. What are they making that will simply be a clone of a game which is in fact better than it? Probably most games they are making, except maybe for Nintendo (but even they are slowly going that way). Even a great like Pikmin is being given a sequel. A good sign, or a bad one. I'm not sure. I just want less hype, more original games and some challenges I've never had to face before.
And what do you think?
A prime example of a game being over hyped (or so I believe) are Metal Gear Solid 2 : Sons of Liberty. Many a month were spent speculating how great this game would be. And it was good. Just not anywhere near as great as was predicted. The cut scenes were, following for MGS on PSX, still far too long, and if that wasn't annoying enough, many people got put off by the fact that you barely got to play as Snake, but Raiden, and many people branded him 'wimpy' with his floppy hair.. If you were a fairly good gamer, with a deep hate of storyline, you'd probably finish it in 5-6 hours. Having felt they had not milked the game enough by charging 40 quid for 6 (non-story) hours (ironically, the game plummeted in price after one or two months, but anyway) they announce MGS2 : Substance. This is essentially the original game, with 300 new missions. Why, however, did they not release this originally? If they had, I probably wouldn't be moaning so much. Good one, Konami, you really know how to get the cash flowing in. May I note, as this point, that I personally thought MGS2 was fairly good, and I own a PS2, so don't go saying I'm a fanboy or some similar comment.
One other very over hyped game, I believe, is Super Mario Sunshine. Now, after typing that, I do expect harsh backlash, but I'll continue. I love the game, and have played it quite thoroughly, but something niggles at me, and I don't believe it lived up to everything it was meant to be. Although it would be unfair to compare it to Super Mario 64, which was undeniably a revolution in gaming, if you put it up against, say, Ratchet and Clank, it is better, but only marginally. This worries me, as Mario is, of course, Nintendo's lead franchise (although it is getting close between Link and himself), and has always dominated the platforming market. Mario Sunshine had 120 sprites to collect, yes, but only across 8 true levels? It seemed fairly low, considering Ratchet has 18 quite lush worlds to cross, all created, along with an excellent game, in a time span much shorter than SMS's. This is going to cause controversy, I know, but if Nintendo don't pull the series back up, other rival platformers may equal it. They still have time, however, to make things right. Hype, it seems, doesn't sell games : SMS didn't do as well as hope. But Zelda should quite easily fill the gap.
But it's not all doom, gloom and ridiculous hype : there are some superb games which are astoundingly original, but are extremely underrated, whether it be because of lack of publicity, unfortunate reviewers who just didn't like it, or little display in shops. My best example of this, and I'm sure many will agree, is Rez. This game, although boring an repetitive to some, is, to me, engrossing. The simplicity of it brings back what games should be about : the gameplay. Not stunning graphics, but gameplay. Of course, almost every game now made needs either great graphics or great sound + gameplay to possibly make a seller, and this has the latter. It linked and integrated the two into each other, with sound and shooting combined beautifully. The extras to unlock made the game replayable and added a nice polish to an already tidy game. I found it hard to understand why people couldn't enjoy / like this game. It is the 3rd best on my PS2. 3rd!
In my opinion, this over hype/underrate must be stopped. The market is being flooded. A game with a tiny snatch of originality is released and every other game in the genre made after this uses the same engine/battle system/control set-up. And even in this day of gaming where genre's are being mixed, the challenge remains that most gamers have played a game out of, well, most genres. So even after the mixing and matching of game types, gamers are, in the end, still left with a dull & repetitive game. And if it's not the challenges that are dull, almost every genre-mixer that succeeds on this front fails the final hurdle.
Trying to integrate 2 genres. This has been tried (and failed) many a time. Dark Summit (on most consoles) was abysmal, mixing a nasty story with bad snowboarding and pointless 'adventure' areas. If Nintendo, for example, aren't stupid enough to make Wave Race with an RPG, or if Sony isn't dumb enough to mix Frequency with a stealth shoot 'em up (extreme examples, I know, but it gets the point across) then why do people try?
Originality, that’s why. Good on '‘em, just don't mess it up. But ohh no, they do. That's my problem with it all. If genre's don’t mix (once again, Dark Summit) then don't try and make them. Use common sense, people! I worry for games like Super Monkey Ball 2 : the original being a great puzzler, but the sequel has a story. Is that wise? And if not, why is it there? Find the line between genius and stupidity, and don't cross it.
Of course, collaborations of genre have been successful in the past, and some great ones are on their way in the future. Metroid Prime, although having been given varying opinions from first screens, now looks set to become a best-seller. 10/10 in many magazines, it's here that maybe, just maybe, hype will be appropriate. One of the extremely rare examples, albeit. And in the past? Vib Ribbon wonderfully mixed music and design with a very, very basic platformer. The 2, once again, were successfully integrated. And notice ... another highly underrated game.
Maybe it's just me. But I think the industry should, right now, review what's in development. What are they making that will simply be a clone of a game which is in fact better than it? Probably most games they are making, except maybe for Nintendo (but even they are slowly going that way). Even a great like Pikmin is being given a sequel. A good sign, or a bad one. I'm not sure. I just want less hype, more original games and some challenges I've never had to face before.
And what do you think?