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"Now I'm angry"

We just don't get it do we?

Think a second.. You're a top international terrorist. You have a bankload of money, enough to fund a small country. You are in charge of a powerful and utterly ruthless horde of fundamentalists. You are holed up in a mountain in Afghanistan?

Now call me cynical but these Northern Alliance freedom fighters seem to be leading the West a merry dance.

NA: Ooh ooh we've found Bin Laden, he's in the last Taliban stronghold!

America: It's okay we'll bomb the living hell out of them for you

NA: Oh look we've defeated them now and he's not here... he must be in the mountains, where the last remnents of the opposition to us are holed up!

America: Fear not brave freedom fighters we will bomb sheven shades of shirt out of those mountains for you.

Yeah, whatever. If I was a top international terrorist I would be long gone. Maybe it's not the Northern Alliance lies that result in us continually hearing of Bin Laden's imminent capture. Let's face the facts, America's trying to 'boost the ratings' on this war, you can't have people losing interest so you feed them the story of a brave GI who stormed a mountain hideaway and nearly died uncovering critical evidence and blowing away taliban terrorists.

You know what that's another thing that really gets me. America does not support terrorists. I am paraphrasing George Bush there, or rather whoever wrote his speech. No, nor does Britain. We don't support terrorists and you know why? BECAUSE WE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!!! You see Britain and America only support FREEDOM FIGHTERS. The Taliban are terrorists and the Northern Alliance are Freedom fighters. The rebels in Sierra Leone, who received British support, are Freedom Fighters. But woe befall any nation tha is not part of the Western clique, woe indeed. If you support a subversive element you are supporting a terrorist organisation. If you send money to Hamas you are supporting Terrorists, if you send money to Israel, then dammit, you're a hero, a true gentleman. Now, I don't condone terrorism, and that's the point. I don't condone terrorism of ANY KIND. hus I don't condone the idiotic hypocrisy of those people in power who maintain the self-righteous, self-justifying bull that they only support Freedom fighters. The Northern Alliance are just as barbaric as the taliban, except we say they treat women better. The Israelis have produced some of the world's most murderous weapons of war, Uzis were first designed there. Equally Hamas encourages people to blow themselves up in Israel, and Israel snds gunships into the Westbank and shoots up school children. And you know what? It's okay if you're a friend of the West, but if you're not then you're a terrorist, and the West hates terrorists so you had better watch your back.

What makes me really angry though -Seething- Is that no one gives a damn. No one sees what's going on, and if they do they think, so what, it doesn't affect me. Well, wake up, it does affect you; it affects all of us. Did you know that Tony Blair is pushing for emergency powers? Do you know what emergency powers are? Basically Blair wants to be able to lock up anyone indefinitely if they are expected of being a terrorist.Now, since the medieval period it has been a cornerstone of our democracy that cannot be imprisoned if charges are not brought against you within 14 days (I think). In the medieval times this was "habeas corpus", ie you have the accused here in person. That way if a Lord had imprisoned someone who he didn't like, the person would be able to turn up at court and if the Lord didn't produce substantial evidence against him, the judge would set the man free on the spot. Tony Blair wants to get rid of that. Are you still saying so what? Well this bill has been rejected seven times by the House of Lords for this very reason.

Are you still saying so what? Well, in Germany in the first half of the 20th Century there was this fire in the German Reichstag. Some madman had gone and set the thing alight, and burned it to the ground (of course it had nothing to do with the skilled pyrotechnicians in Hitler's SS who were all to experienced at burning down Communist displays). So Hitler declared a state of emergency. The rehoused Reichstag agreed in a state of panic, and Hitler took advantage to make himself supreme power in Germany, who did not need to be elected, did not need to use a parliament and was to all intents and purposes a dictator. Now Tony Blair is no Adolf Hitler, and I'm not saying that he attacked the World Trade Centre so that he could declare a state of emergency. I'm just trying to show how serious this piece of legislation is. It is the tool of the despot not the democracy. And if you don't care about it then it's time that you did. The world is in a mess at the moment, and America and Britain are playing toy soldiers and making it worse. It's not going to be them that have to live with the results of this monumental mess; it will be us. This generation will suffer all the fallout.. perhaps even the nuclear fallout.

Wake up and see what's going on politically because the whole point of democracy is that the voice of the people dictates what the government can and can't do.

Shed your indifference and your apathy.
Get angry.
Now.

Today I made the potential mistake of vitriolically attacking the government's proposed emergency powers in my University interview.... But what should happen? The guy agreed with me!

Nice to see that this thread now contains three angry people. Spread the word, there's a riot going down.

Oh, and Somalia AND iraq are on George Bush's shopping list. Great one George, leave a mess in Afghanistan and move on to Iraq, you'll get a lot of support from the resistance that your father abandoned. Pretty soon the Middle East will be a political vacuum, and what do terrorists look for when they're trying to find a hospitable country.. weak politicians and a weak economy.

http://www.somaliawatch.org/archivejuly/000927601.htm

Some brief background on Somalia

Ok, I am currently reading a book called "Propaganda and The Public Mind" by Noam Chomsky, and he's talking about Somalia and the US involvement.

Let me try to summarise 300+ pages of dense socio-political discussion into one easy to read post, it'll take a day or so.

Basically, the USA has been involved in Somalia since the 60s, training and organising rebel camps.

Again.

Take from TheTimes.co.uk:


AMERICA is using fresh details about the workings of the al-Qaeda terrorist network, gleaned from the rubble of Afghanistan, to pave the way for a new theatre of war in Somalia.

Five military officials have met rebel leaders in the lawless East African state as the Pentagon prepares the ground for the second phase of President Bush’s war on terrorism.

The officers held talks at the weekend with leaders of the Rahanwein Resistance Army (RRA), a faction opposed to the fledgeling Somali Government which has no control over much of the country.

Mohamed Aden Ali Qalinle, an official with the RRA, yesterday invited coalition forces to use its bases and men as part of the international war against terrorism. “We made the offer because there are terrorist groups in Somalia. The RRA would welcome in its fiefdom of Bay and Bakol region outside military forces who are truly fighting terrorism,” he said.

Paul Wolfowitz, the US Deputy Defence Secretary, said one of the Pentagon’s chief current concerns was where al-Qaeda fighters who manage to escape Afghanistan may try to flee.

He said the US military was watching closely possible escape routes and sanctuaries. “People mention Somalia for obvious reasons. It’s a country virtually without a government, a country that has a certain al-Qaeda presence already.” But he added that the US military and intelligence now had a “much clearer picture than before” about how al-Qaeda terrorist networks overlapped and operated.

Mr Wolfowitz said: “As the President said from the beginning, the problem of state support for terrorism is one that we have to solve before this is over. And as you go after it in one place, you may flush out information that allows you to hit it somewhere else.”

In a further sign that the US and Britain are turning their attention to the next phase of the war, Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, held talks in neighbouring Kenya yesterday on a scheduled visit which focused on the al-Qaeda threat in Somalia and Sudan.

After Mr Hoon met Daniel arap Moi, the Kenyan President, in Nairobi, the British High Commission said Mr Moi had offered “firm support for the coalition against terrorism”.

I had no idea, but I do now.

This is unfurling like a bad Jackie Collins novel.
You can predict what will happen.

The "Coalition" consists of the USA, UK and Turkey.
That's it.
The other countries have basically sat down and said "No way, this is unjustifiable".

But not us, oh no. Little lapdogs of Bush that we are.

Goatboy wrote:
And I promise you
> it will not stop at bin Laden.
It will move into Iraq, Somalia and Persia
> within a year.
An empty, pointless excuse to invade and install pro-US
> governments under the guise of "Operation Enduring Freedom".




Hmmm, maybe you knew, or maybe it's coincedance, but The Times had a little article today saying that Bush has said that he wants to move into Somalia.

Apparently Al-Queda (sp?) have links with Somalian terrorists, so he wants to blow those up as well.

George W Bush, Sept 14th
"This will be the very definition of swift justice, we will catch the folks that did this and they will pay"

George W Bush, Oct 17th
"This will be a long haul, but we must not falter. We must not waver in our determination to catch bin Laden and bring him to justice"

George W Bush, November 9th
"This is not just about bin Laden, this is about eradicating terrorism worldwide. It will be a long, drawn out process but it is necessary"

misterhappy wrote:
Where will you be> then? Long gone I expect, without any care for the mess you've created. You wait> until the disillusioned masses of Afghanistan are raised with the memory of US> brutality. Have you eradicated terrorism? No, you've created a new generation of> potential terrorists. Good work.


In my view to stop that happening, the UK and US and whoever else is involved in the "coalition" (or whatever the hell it's called, and how come only the UK and US are named?), need to stick around after the "war" is over.

We need to send money and aid and help the people. Help set up schools and hospitals and stuff, so we don't get another generation growing up hating the West.

I'm not saying that we have to build all their cities for them and stuff like that, but we do need to help, otherwise the cycle begins again. And in 20 years or so, you'll have a whole load of Bin Ladens to deal with.

Spot on

Te thing is, I really don't mind if people disagree. I would rather that someone just gave a damn and believed in something. At the moment no one seems that bothered. To engender any response would satisfy me.

The US and UK continually prove their glorious incompetence. An American bomb nearly killed the leader of the new government that America helped to create, and Blair and Straw were humiliated in their Middle-East when thy tried to be McDiplomats. Yeah, like McDonalds where it's quick and easy. Yet no one notices and no one cares about these things. Blair could impersonate a dying chicken at the dispatch box and the majority of the country wouldn't ever know about it.

They are using their bombs to rain vengeance on who? The Taliban? I don't think they were directly responsable for September 11th. On Osama bin Laden? Asfar as I know Osama bin Laden is one man, if you expand it to the hole Al Quaeda network you've got maybe 1000 men at the most. Is the carpet bombing of a country justifiable to get that number of people? They could have been extracted by diplomatic means. I would even have supported the sending in of a small ground force. But carpet bombing doesn't do anyone any good. The US has virtually levelled Afghanistan and let the faction-riddled, murderous Northern Alliance to spread through the country.

Great propaganda coup boys. You've wiped the Taliban off the face of the earth. But wait! Afghanistan is going to descend into civil war once the Taliban has been wiped out. Where will you be then? Long gone I expect, without any care for the mess you've created. You wait until the disillusioned masses of Afghanistan are raised with the memory of US brutality. Have you eradicated terrorism? No, you've created a new generation of potential terrorists. Good work.

Welcome to my life Mr Happy.
I've been shouting about this stuff since Sept 11th and debating it with reasonable people here and arguing with narrow minded people that think "I do not support the Western action of carpet bombing one of the poorest nations of earth" is the same as sayinv "Go bin Laden!".

I don't even have enough energy to defend both your post and our views.
People are going to disagree Mr Happy, such is the way of the world.

But to anyone that immediately starts to attack this post (a fate I have suffered as well as the intelligent replies), telling Mr Happy that he is wrong to think the things he does is no better than the Taliban telling people they can't shave.

The freedom of dissent is just as valid as the right to vote.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
This is not a war on terrorism, this is posturing and flag waving in order to ramp up defence spending and force a USA toehold in the OPEC nation regions.

Yes, action was needed following Sept 11th, but no diplomatic channels were even considered. Remember the Taliban offered to surrender bin Laden if the US provided the evidence?
Bush refused and simply went in anyway.
And what evidence have we seen? Any here speak Arabic? No? Then I guess you haven't personally translated the Al Queda statements?

US foreign policy is one of helping terrorists (except you call them resistance fighters then) until they turn and use that money/training/weapons on the States. THEN they become terrorists.
The CIA trained and funded the Muhjadeen and bin Laden, we approved of his tactics then.

And like Mr Happy says, Blair is issuing in all manner of repulsive laws that violate the European Charter on human civil rights.
David Blunkett suggests we opt out of it "for a period".
Yeah right, like that's even a good idea.
America has introduced Military Tribunals for suspected terrorists.
Military Tribunals have no jury, and the onus is on the defendant to prove themselves innocent as opposed to the prosecution finding them guilty.

There is an inscription on the base of the Statue of Liberty that says "Send us your weak, your sick and your hungry so that they make taste freedom".
Doesn't apply now though.

And oops, 3 US servicemen killed and 29 wounded when a "smart bomb" hits the wrong target.
A tragedy? Possibly, some would say "Don't join the army if you dont want to get killed".

I know I said I wasn't going to bang on about this subject despite having just done that.
I agree 100% with Mr Happy, as I have been saying since Sept 11th in this forum on many an occasion.

And I promise you it will not stop at bin Laden.
It will move into Iraq, Somalia and Persia within a year.
An empty, pointless excuse to invade and install pro-US governments under the guise of "Operation Enduring Freedom".