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I got this from a friend who is as in favour of the current military action as I am.
It's apparently something he wrote for the News of the World, so no doubt it will immediately have scourn poured upon it. However, I thought it might be interesting to post a view other than how utterly bad and evil the West is.
Is it also my view? Yes. I'm a working-class guy with no pretensions, and no concerns about 'sinking to their level' if that's what it takes.
-----
Send in our invisible men
By FREDERICK FORSYTH, Best-selling author
and military commentator
WHAT you saw die on September 11 was not just the World Trade Center towers. The other fatality was the Queensbury rules. To win the ëwar' on global terrorism we have to use rules of engagement you would not want to describe to the vicar.
The moralists will preach that we must not be ruthless in hunting down mass killers because that reduces us to their level. It's poppycock.
What you also watched on that awful Tuesday was the start of the Second Cold War. Like the first one it will be fought seven ways.
The first is conventional firepower. Then come the ëintelligence' fronts ó political, diplomatic, economic and covert (old-fashioned espionage) ó putting together a jigsaw revealing the ëwho', ëwhen' and ëwhere' of killers, past and intended.
Front Six is ëactive measure'. Not every terrorist will walk tamely into court charged with murder. Nests of killers will be found miles from these shores. That is when our special forces go in. Their work is fast, invisible, deadly and deniable. We need them now as never before, and we need politicians with the bottle to give the orders.
The Seventh Front will target the most dangerous thing about Osama bin Laden. It is not his guns and bombs: it is The Message.
To us it sounds a crackpot message of revenge and death. But for millions of frustrated dirt-poor young Muslims it is the message they want to hear. Right across the Muslim world there are societies mired in poverty, hunger, disease, and the youth ask: "Why us? Did not Allah the Compassionate promise a good life to us who obey His laws? Yet the infidel of America and the West prosper, and we are poor. Why?"
It never occurs to them that they and their brutal, corrupt rulers may have contributed to their own ruin. But bin Laden answers them: "It is not your fault. It is the infidel. They have dominated, colonised and robbed you. The Prophet demands that we kill them for justice's sake." And they listen. And they riot.
It is easy to kill the messenger, but can you kill The Message? This is the hardest part of all.
The campaign in Afghanistan must be fought by invisible special forces plus specific-target air strikes seen by no one. The only ëvisibles' must be other Afghans, the Northern Front fighters. Muslims must be seen to liberate Muslim territory, topple the Taliban and destroy the al Qaida organisation. The only photographic evidence must show, or appear to show, they did it themselves.
Not entirely true? So what? This is the propaganda war of ësmoke and mirrors'. Bin Laden and his followers lie about us. We must use the same currency, but more skilfully. The terror masters must not just be taken out; they must be completely discredited in the eyes of young Islam.
Or there will be more September 11s.
It's apparently something he wrote for the News of the World, so no doubt it will immediately have scourn poured upon it. However, I thought it might be interesting to post a view other than how utterly bad and evil the West is.
Is it also my view? Yes. I'm a working-class guy with no pretensions, and no concerns about 'sinking to their level' if that's what it takes.
-----
Send in our invisible men
By FREDERICK FORSYTH, Best-selling author
and military commentator
WHAT you saw die on September 11 was not just the World Trade Center towers. The other fatality was the Queensbury rules. To win the ëwar' on global terrorism we have to use rules of engagement you would not want to describe to the vicar.
The moralists will preach that we must not be ruthless in hunting down mass killers because that reduces us to their level. It's poppycock.
What you also watched on that awful Tuesday was the start of the Second Cold War. Like the first one it will be fought seven ways.
The first is conventional firepower. Then come the ëintelligence' fronts ó political, diplomatic, economic and covert (old-fashioned espionage) ó putting together a jigsaw revealing the ëwho', ëwhen' and ëwhere' of killers, past and intended.
Front Six is ëactive measure'. Not every terrorist will walk tamely into court charged with murder. Nests of killers will be found miles from these shores. That is when our special forces go in. Their work is fast, invisible, deadly and deniable. We need them now as never before, and we need politicians with the bottle to give the orders.
The Seventh Front will target the most dangerous thing about Osama bin Laden. It is not his guns and bombs: it is The Message.
To us it sounds a crackpot message of revenge and death. But for millions of frustrated dirt-poor young Muslims it is the message they want to hear. Right across the Muslim world there are societies mired in poverty, hunger, disease, and the youth ask: "Why us? Did not Allah the Compassionate promise a good life to us who obey His laws? Yet the infidel of America and the West prosper, and we are poor. Why?"
It never occurs to them that they and their brutal, corrupt rulers may have contributed to their own ruin. But bin Laden answers them: "It is not your fault. It is the infidel. They have dominated, colonised and robbed you. The Prophet demands that we kill them for justice's sake." And they listen. And they riot.
It is easy to kill the messenger, but can you kill The Message? This is the hardest part of all.
The campaign in Afghanistan must be fought by invisible special forces plus specific-target air strikes seen by no one. The only ëvisibles' must be other Afghans, the Northern Front fighters. Muslims must be seen to liberate Muslim territory, topple the Taliban and destroy the al Qaida organisation. The only photographic evidence must show, or appear to show, they did it themselves.
Not entirely true? So what? This is the propaganda war of ësmoke and mirrors'. Bin Laden and his followers lie about us. We must use the same currency, but more skilfully. The terror masters must not just be taken out; they must be completely discredited in the eyes of young Islam.
Or there will be more September 11s.
Whilst I can see why people don't want the UK involved in this conflict ( someone in my local paper wrote a letter saying we whould be a neutral state ! ) bear this in mind;
The terrorists don't care. People march on Downing Street, write letters to papers about peace and diplomacy, make posters blaming the US and criticise our governments, and it doesn't make one bit of difference to them. We, as a country, have supported the US many times in the past so if anyone thinks we were not a target then think again. Our RAF has constantly flown sorties since 1991 in the Gulf to enforce the no fly zone.
So, say some, we should have stayed out of that conflict as well. We should have let a dictator trample all over Kuwait, seize the oil fields and watched on CNN while it happened. What kind of message would that have been to others ?
What kind of message would it be now ? That you can kill our citizens, attack our allies, attack our way of life ? The US was the target because it is the biggest symbol on this earth that freedom and democracy works. It has problems, like the UK, but nowhere is perfect. To anyone who doubts the US is a great country then go to a news site, read the stories of emergency service personnel who went into the first tower minutes after the initial attack. Who of us would be that brave ? Can we honestly say our gut reaction would not just be to get out of there as the debris crashed down and the second plane hit ?
Why did the US/UK supply weapons to the mujahadeen ?(sorry for the spelling ) Why did we help them ? To drive back the perceived Commuinist invasion. We don't supply the weapons now or for the past 10 years. Did anyone object to the US supplying the SAS with Stingers during the Falklands, I don't think so.
Today it was reported about the red cross building being hit, and supposedly a hospital. One point is that it shouldn't have happened, but on the other hand ( and this is the non politically correct view ) shouldn't the red cross have moved out of the way of major military targets ? Because, whilst places like Kabul are cities, they have become military targets. Is this because we, the coalition, want to bomb civilians ? Nope, its because the Taliban and Al Queda situate military resources and installations at these places. Move those resources and personnel and they are not targets. The UK and USA situate military bases and instalation in mainly countryside areas away from major populations, and we, the UK, only have a small island. The Taleban have a whole desert to play with and they choose cities/towns. And they expect sympathy for it. Cold hearted ? Maybe, no civilian, anywhere, deserves to die. Claims that a propoganda war are being waged are true, but what kind of footage are the Taliban releasing, pictures of children injured by bombs. If that isn't propoganda then what is ? Has the USA made a point of telling the world every child killed on September 11th ?
Today also saw another event, the first acknowledged use of ground forces. Task Force 160 ( I think this is a marine unit ) with helicopter support and AC130 spectres attacked for the first time. The purpose is not yet known. But it is exactly the message that needs to be sent. That if you are a terrorist, if you harbour them or help them, then one day we, the coalition, will come for you, kill all those who stand in our way and get you, in any way possible.
For too long the major powers have sat by and watched this planet go to ruin, afraid of what the PC brigade will think or say. At last we are seeing a change and its about time. Anyone who thinks that this is shattering a peace stretching back to 1945 is sadly wrong. War isn't nice, it isn't free of casualties, it isn't open about its business, it is never going to be free of "collateral damage" ( a term invented to please the public ). It also isn't about sticking your head in the sand and pretending everything will be okay if you stay quiet, we tried that in 1939 and look what happened.
Finally, I am yet to hear a viable alternative. People criticise the current action but when it comes to actual alternatives ? Political means they say, well I'm sorry but a government which cannot decide to hand over one man in 4 weeks sin't one you can negotiate with.They had another day also, and still no surrender. So handing one man over won't necessarily halt the campaign, but so what ? Anyone seriously think that the Taleban think Al Queda is up for the nobel peace prize ( as for the UN winning it this year....hilarious ) They knew what Bin Laden had done before this, so does any other country who harbours people, and if they suffer for turning a blind eye then thats their own fault. The Uk has on occassion had suspected terrorists in it, but it is our own laws, not the authorities, which let this happen. Those laws are the result of the very same people who now protest against Enduring Freedom.
You want to protest ? Fine, you can, but remember it is the very same kind of people conducting ops in Afghanistan that have died all through history to give you that freedom. Those people out there care enough to put their lives at risk to defend you. Because a bomb doesnt care what you say, a virus cannot hear your protests, a bullet kills anyone, and the blast of a nuclear device differentiates between nobody.
The terrorists don't care. People march on Downing Street, write letters to papers about peace and diplomacy, make posters blaming the US and criticise our governments, and it doesn't make one bit of difference to them. We, as a country, have supported the US many times in the past so if anyone thinks we were not a target then think again. Our RAF has constantly flown sorties since 1991 in the Gulf to enforce the no fly zone.
So, say some, we should have stayed out of that conflict as well. We should have let a dictator trample all over Kuwait, seize the oil fields and watched on CNN while it happened. What kind of message would that have been to others ?
What kind of message would it be now ? That you can kill our citizens, attack our allies, attack our way of life ? The US was the target because it is the biggest symbol on this earth that freedom and democracy works. It has problems, like the UK, but nowhere is perfect. To anyone who doubts the US is a great country then go to a news site, read the stories of emergency service personnel who went into the first tower minutes after the initial attack. Who of us would be that brave ? Can we honestly say our gut reaction would not just be to get out of there as the debris crashed down and the second plane hit ?
Why did the US/UK supply weapons to the mujahadeen ?(sorry for the spelling ) Why did we help them ? To drive back the perceived Commuinist invasion. We don't supply the weapons now or for the past 10 years. Did anyone object to the US supplying the SAS with Stingers during the Falklands, I don't think so.
Today it was reported about the red cross building being hit, and supposedly a hospital. One point is that it shouldn't have happened, but on the other hand ( and this is the non politically correct view ) shouldn't the red cross have moved out of the way of major military targets ? Because, whilst places like Kabul are cities, they have become military targets. Is this because we, the coalition, want to bomb civilians ? Nope, its because the Taliban and Al Queda situate military resources and installations at these places. Move those resources and personnel and they are not targets. The UK and USA situate military bases and instalation in mainly countryside areas away from major populations, and we, the UK, only have a small island. The Taleban have a whole desert to play with and they choose cities/towns. And they expect sympathy for it. Cold hearted ? Maybe, no civilian, anywhere, deserves to die. Claims that a propoganda war are being waged are true, but what kind of footage are the Taliban releasing, pictures of children injured by bombs. If that isn't propoganda then what is ? Has the USA made a point of telling the world every child killed on September 11th ?
Today also saw another event, the first acknowledged use of ground forces. Task Force 160 ( I think this is a marine unit ) with helicopter support and AC130 spectres attacked for the first time. The purpose is not yet known. But it is exactly the message that needs to be sent. That if you are a terrorist, if you harbour them or help them, then one day we, the coalition, will come for you, kill all those who stand in our way and get you, in any way possible.
For too long the major powers have sat by and watched this planet go to ruin, afraid of what the PC brigade will think or say. At last we are seeing a change and its about time. Anyone who thinks that this is shattering a peace stretching back to 1945 is sadly wrong. War isn't nice, it isn't free of casualties, it isn't open about its business, it is never going to be free of "collateral damage" ( a term invented to please the public ). It also isn't about sticking your head in the sand and pretending everything will be okay if you stay quiet, we tried that in 1939 and look what happened.
Finally, I am yet to hear a viable alternative. People criticise the current action but when it comes to actual alternatives ? Political means they say, well I'm sorry but a government which cannot decide to hand over one man in 4 weeks sin't one you can negotiate with.They had another day also, and still no surrender. So handing one man over won't necessarily halt the campaign, but so what ? Anyone seriously think that the Taleban think Al Queda is up for the nobel peace prize ( as for the UN winning it this year....hilarious ) They knew what Bin Laden had done before this, so does any other country who harbours people, and if they suffer for turning a blind eye then thats their own fault. The Uk has on occassion had suspected terrorists in it, but it is our own laws, not the authorities, which let this happen. Those laws are the result of the very same people who now protest against Enduring Freedom.
You want to protest ? Fine, you can, but remember it is the very same kind of people conducting ops in Afghanistan that have died all through history to give you that freedom. Those people out there care enough to put their lives at risk to defend you. Because a bomb doesnt care what you say, a virus cannot hear your protests, a bullet kills anyone, and the blast of a nuclear device differentiates between nobody.
Osama Bin Laden is suspected of carrying out several attacks on the US and has openly stated that he wants to destroy them. The attacks on two American embasies in Africa, the World Trade Centre and the current Anthrax cases in the US are all being placed firmly on the shoulders of one man. It is not concievable that this one man runs the entire show, but he is so wealthy that it is concievable that he can fund such operations, gather weapons and stockpile biological agents such as Anthrax. The only way to guarantee that this sort of threat os neutralised is to take away it;s source first of all. That is why Bin Laden is being targeted but also the Taliban regime of Afghanistan, they are giving Bin Laden a safe operating haven. Take away this safe haven, and Bin Laden would have to look elsewhere to base his al-Quaeda network.
Bin Laden hasn't been the only man targetted, other major players in the al-Quaeda network and Taliban regimes are suspected of carrying out the recent terrorist attacks,and they too have been targeted, but the media circus likes a main figure, and in Bin Laden they have their target. We are spoon fed the media circus, we do not know really what is happeneing.
Bin Laden hasn't been the only man targetted, other major players in the al-Quaeda network and Taliban regimes are suspected of carrying out the recent terrorist attacks,and they too have been targeted, but the media circus likes a main figure, and in Bin Laden they have their target. We are spoon fed the media circus, we do not know really what is happeneing.
Can someone just answer me a question.
I feel a bit silly answering it as I'm sure the answer is really obvious and I'm just being a dumb bastad.
But what the hell is America doing sticking it's nose in over there anyway?
I feel a bit silly answering it as I'm sure the answer is really obvious and I'm just being a dumb bastad.
But what the hell is America doing sticking it's nose in over there anyway?
Exactly.
I agree with that "What the hell are we even doing over there? Leave them be to sort it out themselves"
But the entire problem is that, whilst the Arab states have their own problems, they have been excarbated by the USAs continual involvement in funding Mujhadin groups to fight those groups it considers "undesirable in the region"
If we just all look at our own countries and tried to solve those problems, maybe we'd be in a better position to dictate to every other country how to act.
We ain't no better than anyone else, so why are we so concerned with "righting wrongs" elsewhere, when we have an antiquated health-system, one of the most draconian societies in the Western World etc etc??
Fix ourselves before we fix everyone else.
I agree with that "What the hell are we even doing over there? Leave them be to sort it out themselves"
But the entire problem is that, whilst the Arab states have their own problems, they have been excarbated by the USAs continual involvement in funding Mujhadin groups to fight those groups it considers "undesirable in the region"
If we just all look at our own countries and tried to solve those problems, maybe we'd be in a better position to dictate to every other country how to act.
We ain't no better than anyone else, so why are we so concerned with "righting wrongs" elsewhere, when we have an antiquated health-system, one of the most draconian societies in the Western World etc etc??
Fix ourselves before we fix everyone else.
Goatboy wrote:
> To use another quote from a famous blokey
> "An eye for an eye leads the world to blindness" Ghandi
"Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day." - Confucious
Quotes are great fun, but they don't provide a solution to anything.
I've yet to see anyone offer a viable, effective alternative to military action.
Ground troops? Nope, will upset the other Muslim nations.
Bombing? Cruel on the general population.
Sanctions? Cruel on the general population.
Let them carry on as they were? Yes, let's - they're not so bad really.
We can't win. Whatever we do, someone's always going to tell us we're wrong.
If I'm perfectly honest, I'd like to see them bring all the troops home for Christmas and let the rest of the world sort out their own damn problems. I'm fed up with being stuck in the middle and told "we're responsible" for the mistakes of previous generations. I wasn't here, it's not my fault, now sod off and leave me in peace. I don't owe anything to anyone.
> To use another quote from a famous blokey
> "An eye for an eye leads the world to blindness" Ghandi
"Man with hand in pocket feel cocky all day." - Confucious
Quotes are great fun, but they don't provide a solution to anything.
I've yet to see anyone offer a viable, effective alternative to military action.
Ground troops? Nope, will upset the other Muslim nations.
Bombing? Cruel on the general population.
Sanctions? Cruel on the general population.
Let them carry on as they were? Yes, let's - they're not so bad really.
We can't win. Whatever we do, someone's always going to tell us we're wrong.
If I'm perfectly honest, I'd like to see them bring all the troops home for Christmas and let the rest of the world sort out their own damn problems. I'm fed up with being stuck in the middle and told "we're responsible" for the mistakes of previous generations. I wasn't here, it's not my fault, now sod off and leave me in peace. I don't owe anything to anyone.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on this, so good on Frederick Forsyth.
Is this the Frederick Forsyth that wrote "Day of The Jackal", a novel about the assasination of the French Prime Minister because, "I believe that the only true way to revert policy you disagree with is to remove the head of that which you find disagreeable? This is my own version of a modern way to topple the towers, and a fine read"
(I'm trying to find his quote on a website to back this up, gimme a while)
Nice to see Mr Forsyth encouraging another cold-war and advocating policy of keeping us in the dark "for our own sakes".
To use another quote from a famous blokey
"An eye for an eye leads the world to blindness" Ghandi
Is this the Frederick Forsyth that wrote "Day of The Jackal", a novel about the assasination of the French Prime Minister because, "I believe that the only true way to revert policy you disagree with is to remove the head of that which you find disagreeable? This is my own version of a modern way to topple the towers, and a fine read"
(I'm trying to find his quote on a website to back this up, gimme a while)
Nice to see Mr Forsyth encouraging another cold-war and advocating policy of keeping us in the dark "for our own sakes".
To use another quote from a famous blokey
"An eye for an eye leads the world to blindness" Ghandi
I got this from a friend who is as in favour of the current military action as I am.
It's apparently something he wrote for the News of the World, so no doubt it will immediately have scourn poured upon it. However, I thought it might be interesting to post a view other than how utterly bad and evil the West is.
Is it also my view? Yes. I'm a working-class guy with no pretensions, and no concerns about 'sinking to their level' if that's what it takes.
-----
Send in our invisible men
By FREDERICK FORSYTH, Best-selling author
and military commentator
WHAT you saw die on September 11 was not just the World Trade Center towers. The other fatality was the Queensbury rules. To win the ëwar' on global terrorism we have to use rules of engagement you would not want to describe to the vicar.
The moralists will preach that we must not be ruthless in hunting down mass killers because that reduces us to their level. It's poppycock.
What you also watched on that awful Tuesday was the start of the Second Cold War. Like the first one it will be fought seven ways.
The first is conventional firepower. Then come the ëintelligence' fronts ó political, diplomatic, economic and covert (old-fashioned espionage) ó putting together a jigsaw revealing the ëwho', ëwhen' and ëwhere' of killers, past and intended.
Front Six is ëactive measure'. Not every terrorist will walk tamely into court charged with murder. Nests of killers will be found miles from these shores. That is when our special forces go in. Their work is fast, invisible, deadly and deniable. We need them now as never before, and we need politicians with the bottle to give the orders.
The Seventh Front will target the most dangerous thing about Osama bin Laden. It is not his guns and bombs: it is The Message.
To us it sounds a crackpot message of revenge and death. But for millions of frustrated dirt-poor young Muslims it is the message they want to hear. Right across the Muslim world there are societies mired in poverty, hunger, disease, and the youth ask: "Why us? Did not Allah the Compassionate promise a good life to us who obey His laws? Yet the infidel of America and the West prosper, and we are poor. Why?"
It never occurs to them that they and their brutal, corrupt rulers may have contributed to their own ruin. But bin Laden answers them: "It is not your fault. It is the infidel. They have dominated, colonised and robbed you. The Prophet demands that we kill them for justice's sake." And they listen. And they riot.
It is easy to kill the messenger, but can you kill The Message? This is the hardest part of all.
The campaign in Afghanistan must be fought by invisible special forces plus specific-target air strikes seen by no one. The only ëvisibles' must be other Afghans, the Northern Front fighters. Muslims must be seen to liberate Muslim territory, topple the Taliban and destroy the al Qaida organisation. The only photographic evidence must show, or appear to show, they did it themselves.
Not entirely true? So what? This is the propaganda war of ësmoke and mirrors'. Bin Laden and his followers lie about us. We must use the same currency, but more skilfully. The terror masters must not just be taken out; they must be completely discredited in the eyes of young Islam.
Or there will be more September 11s.
It's apparently something he wrote for the News of the World, so no doubt it will immediately have scourn poured upon it. However, I thought it might be interesting to post a view other than how utterly bad and evil the West is.
Is it also my view? Yes. I'm a working-class guy with no pretensions, and no concerns about 'sinking to their level' if that's what it takes.
-----
Send in our invisible men
By FREDERICK FORSYTH, Best-selling author
and military commentator
WHAT you saw die on September 11 was not just the World Trade Center towers. The other fatality was the Queensbury rules. To win the ëwar' on global terrorism we have to use rules of engagement you would not want to describe to the vicar.
The moralists will preach that we must not be ruthless in hunting down mass killers because that reduces us to their level. It's poppycock.
What you also watched on that awful Tuesday was the start of the Second Cold War. Like the first one it will be fought seven ways.
The first is conventional firepower. Then come the ëintelligence' fronts ó political, diplomatic, economic and covert (old-fashioned espionage) ó putting together a jigsaw revealing the ëwho', ëwhen' and ëwhere' of killers, past and intended.
Front Six is ëactive measure'. Not every terrorist will walk tamely into court charged with murder. Nests of killers will be found miles from these shores. That is when our special forces go in. Their work is fast, invisible, deadly and deniable. We need them now as never before, and we need politicians with the bottle to give the orders.
The Seventh Front will target the most dangerous thing about Osama bin Laden. It is not his guns and bombs: it is The Message.
To us it sounds a crackpot message of revenge and death. But for millions of frustrated dirt-poor young Muslims it is the message they want to hear. Right across the Muslim world there are societies mired in poverty, hunger, disease, and the youth ask: "Why us? Did not Allah the Compassionate promise a good life to us who obey His laws? Yet the infidel of America and the West prosper, and we are poor. Why?"
It never occurs to them that they and their brutal, corrupt rulers may have contributed to their own ruin. But bin Laden answers them: "It is not your fault. It is the infidel. They have dominated, colonised and robbed you. The Prophet demands that we kill them for justice's sake." And they listen. And they riot.
It is easy to kill the messenger, but can you kill The Message? This is the hardest part of all.
The campaign in Afghanistan must be fought by invisible special forces plus specific-target air strikes seen by no one. The only ëvisibles' must be other Afghans, the Northern Front fighters. Muslims must be seen to liberate Muslim territory, topple the Taliban and destroy the al Qaida organisation. The only photographic evidence must show, or appear to show, they did it themselves.
Not entirely true? So what? This is the propaganda war of ësmoke and mirrors'. Bin Laden and his followers lie about us. We must use the same currency, but more skilfully. The terror masters must not just be taken out; they must be completely discredited in the eyes of young Islam.
Or there will be more September 11s.