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"Chatroom users 'egged on father to kill himself live on webcam'"

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I'm reading about it in the newspaper aswell. There were 50 people at the time, here are some posts.

'F###ing do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For F###'s sake, he can't even do this properly.'

'Oh my God, this is serious. Someone call the police.'

'His face is turning red.'

'His face is turning purple. This guy is dead'

'OMG'

'Is this real?'

Borat wrote:
> If you can't see the difference between the example I gave and
> this then I don't see where we can go with this. You are
> talking about physically getting into a car and murdering
> someone. I was talking about something different entirely.

The implication of your statement was that as long as there was no intent (and it was just a joke) then your actions werent criminal. Well I dont have any criminal intent in my joy riding either. Hence it would be manslaughter and not murder. :)

> I'd really be interested to know how you'd intend to enforce a
> law that forbids people to speak their own mind. We have
> freedom of speech (alledgedly) in this country. What you're
> suggesting is we shouldn't be able to have that right. That if
> I go onto a forum such as this one and tell someone I wish they
> were dead, that I should be locked up along with all the
> murderers and rapists. I'd be interested to know where you'd go
> from there, because it's a slippery slope to losing the ability
> to speak your mind ...

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. We are talking about consequences of actions.
(And by the above I assume you believe Abu Hamza was jailed unjustly as he was just speaking his mind?)

> I'm just sick of the way our society seems to think that people
> are never to blame for their own actions. There's always some
> external influence or reason for why people act the way they do.

I'd agree with that, yet your argument seems to agree with them. Lets be absolutely clear here, we are talking about situations that people have chosen to actively involve themselves in. They arent innocent bystanders, they arent taking part in some unrelated activity that later may impact on current events.
You're the one that seems to be advocating a lack of personal responsibility, or as I like to call it the "ME ME ME! Society". As long as you dont directly do something wrong, screw the rest of the world eh?

Also I would point out that responsibility isnt an all or nothing concept. Nobody would deny that ultimately the person commiting suicide is responsible for their actions. Yet that doesnt mean that inciting that person to commit suicide (whether its a joke or not) is acceptable.

> Someone falls over at work. They're not to blame, they weren't
> to know that wet floors are slippy. Someone murders their
> family. They're not to blame, they had a bad upbringing.

Do you know of any murder cases where the person was absolved of responsibility? You get cases of diminished responsibility but even then do they drop the charges?

Alfonse wrote:
> All this talk of suicide makes me rather sad, I know many people
> who have tried in their lifetime to commit suicide.

take the hint ;)

Garin wrote:

> Common sense? Surely common sense suggests you shouldnt
> encourage emotionally unstable people to commit suicide no
> matter how funny it might be. Or maybe you think its ok, just a
> harmless bit of fun, eh?

Well this is a HUGE grey area. Maybe I made an error using the term common sense. First of all .. how did these people know he was emotionally unstable and not just someone craving a bit of limelight? I think it's fairly probable that if these people KNEW he was emotionally unstable, they might have taken a different approach to the situation. They may not, there are some sick people out there, it's not important though. All this is beside the point. The true intent of the people behind the goading is not the issue, it's the fact that you believe that if someone taunts someone else to the point where they kill themself, that the person taunting is in some way responsible for their death. It really is difficult, and in my opinion daft to start laying blame in this way.


> You're just being ridiculous. Perhaps if I jokingly take my car
> and run a few people over that'll be ok too. After all, I didnt
> mean it, was just a joke.

If you can't see the difference between the example I gave and this then I don't see where we can go with this. You are talking about physically getting into a car and murdering someone. I was talking about something different entirely. Suggesting to someone that they take their own life is nothing whatsoever like jumping into a car and running them over. Stop me if I'm wrong.

> Actions have consequences and if those actions played a role in
> somebodys death then they should be accountable no matter their
> intent.

I'd really be interested to know how you'd intend to enforce a law that forbids people to speak their own mind. We have freedom of speech (alledgedly) in this country. What you're suggesting is we shouldn't be able to have that right. That if I go onto a forum such as this one and tell someone I wish they were dead, that I should be locked up along with all the murderers and rapists. I'd be interested to know where you'd go from there, because it's a slippery slope to losing the ability to speak your mind ...

> Seems to me that you say people should take responsibility, yet
> you dont seem to really believe it.

I'm just sick of the way our society seems to think that people are never to blame for their own actions. There's always some external influence or reason for why people act the way they do.

Someone falls over at work. They're not to blame, they weren't to know that wet floors are slippy. Someone murders their family. They're not to blame, they had a bad upbringing. Someone steals and vandalises public property. They're not to blame, they came from a poor family. Someone commits suicide, when thousands, no millions of other people, have to stare death in the face every day and never complain about it. Can't have been his fault, must have been the people who goaded him.

Cynical, maybe. But I do believe people should take responsibility. I believe that in every bad thing that happens to you, even those things that seem to be a complete accident, there will be at least part of it that will be your own fault.

But this has gone way off topic, and I don't in any way want to come across that I don't feel sadness for what happened to that man. It's a tragic waste of life. But he took it, and no-one else.

Borat wrote:
> I hope it remains on the non-criminal side of the border thank
> you very much. We're already at that stage where innocent
> people are locked up in case they 'might' do something illegal
> in future. Next we'll be locking people up for insulting each
> other. How pathetic. The world is going mad, let's leave some
> things to common sense for gods sake and stop bringing in
> pointless laws.

Common sense? Surely common sense suggests you shouldnt encourage emotionally unstable people to commit suicide no matter how funny it might be. Or maybe you think its ok, just a harmless bit of fun, eh?

> If I jokingly tell someone to kill themselves
> and they go ahead and do it, how does that make me a criminal?

You're just being ridiculous. Perhaps if I jokingly take my car and run a few people over that'll be ok too. After all, I didnt mean it, was just a joke. Actions have consequences and if those actions played a role in somebodys death then they should be accountable no matter their intent.
Seems to me that you say people should take responsibility, yet you dont seem to really believe it.

Hedfix wrote:
> Borat wrote:
> Can't imagine what sort of sad gets log onto forums to have a
> go
> at each other in insult forums.
>
> [URL]http://chat.freeola.com/General-Chat-2-chat/The-person-above-618.html[/URL]

Ah, touché ;)

Garin wrote:

> In fact, just had a quick look around at the law. I cant find
> anything specific but I suspect its on the border of legality
> already.

I hope it remains on the non-criminal side of the border thank you very much. We're already at that stage where innocent people are locked up in case they 'might' do something illegal in future. Next we'll be locking people up for insulting each other. How pathetic. The world is going mad, let's leave some things to common sense for gods sake and stop bringing in pointless laws. If I jokingly tell someone to kill themselves and they go ahead and do it, how does that make me a criminal?

Borat wrote:
> Can't imagine what sort of sad gets log onto forums to have a go
> at each other in insult forums.

[URL]http://chat.freeola.com/General-Chat-2-chat/The-person-above-618.html[/URL]

Here we go.


[LINK=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6389969.stm][B]Suicide attempt man urged to jump[/B][/LINK]

Onlookers urged a suicidal man to throw himself off a multi-storey car park, police said.

All this talk of suicide makes me rather sad, I know many people who have tried in their lifetime to commit suicide.

Not long ago there was another article about someone trying to commit suicide by jumping off a building. The people below were egging the person to do it. =/ I'm trying to find the article to find out if the person died.

I remember it because I was planning to do a thread about it.

Borat wrote:
> If you're going to start that conversation, you may as well say
> all the churches, mosques, buddhist temples etc in the world are
> guilty of brainwashing.

I don't know, after ten years of being a Christian I felt quite brainwashed. It all starts at baptism :(