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Sticking with the prison issue can I present another issue?
I accidentally, but stupidly, assisted in the burning down of a barn with a compensation claim reaching £200,000. I got 200 hours community service and a £2000 compensation payment.
During this incident my solicitor and PC Dave Lofting of the Huntingdon Police said to me "If it was a shed you wouldn't be in trouble".
So basically, I am a criminal because it was a lot of money I accidentally destroyed, I am not a criminal if the money was low??? But the crime is exactly the same. If I had burnt down something worth little I am not a reckless arsonist but if it is worth a lot I am???
How flawed is this.
During my community service I have met a chap named Steve. He is a very very nice guy, he helped me build a ramp (actually I helped him but lets not bicker). His wife left him and threw him out the house. 2 of his children want to live with him so that has made him feel better. The sad thing is he hasn't a home. He contacted the council and they are still, 3 months after he was kicked out, looking for a place to live. (he has a very small income).
Anyway the council understood that he was living in his car. One day after a mates birthday he comes back to his car after 4-5 drinks. He falls asleep only to be awoken by a knock at the window. He is breathalised and is given 100 hours community service for being "drunk in charge of a vehicle". The council wrote a letter explaining to the court that it was his home. They didn't care.
Now from both of these cases you could say neither me, nor steve are criminals. I was an idiot but hardly deserving of the label "criminal". Steve certainly isn't.
But then... lets take this example further. Much further.
One night a man is coming home from a late bussiness meeting. Very very late. Missing his family he tries to get back before his wife and kids go to sleep. He isn't speeding, but he is tired, normally he'd have stopped by now but he is but a few miles from home. He may as well continue.
But disaster strikes, he falls asleep. He drives off the road and onto a railway line. He is hit by a train. He survives. But 50 passangers do not. The man, when he comes around is devestated. He has killed so many people, he feels physically sick and can't begin to comprehend the damage he has done. Of course the judge has no choice but to send him to prison. A hardworking human being with a good family who has never been in trouble before goes to prison for a lengthy period of time.
The families of course believe it isn't enough. The judge, to some varying agree knows, that the man he sent to prison is no criminal. But a man who made a terrible mistake.
Looking at that incident and maybe some of you can relate to it. I have been in the car with many people who are driving home tired. From concerts or one day music festivals mainly. Worn out and exhausted my girlfriend drove 100's of miles home and nearly fell asleep. It could have been her, it could have been me... it could have been you.
Of course similar stories are found all the time involving drunk drivers.
What defines a criminal exactly?
I accidentally, but stupidly, assisted in the burning down of a barn with a compensation claim reaching £200,000. I got 200 hours community service and a £2000 compensation payment.
During this incident my solicitor and PC Dave Lofting of the Huntingdon Police said to me "If it was a shed you wouldn't be in trouble".
So basically, I am a criminal because it was a lot of money I accidentally destroyed, I am not a criminal if the money was low??? But the crime is exactly the same. If I had burnt down something worth little I am not a reckless arsonist but if it is worth a lot I am???
How flawed is this.
During my community service I have met a chap named Steve. He is a very very nice guy, he helped me build a ramp (actually I helped him but lets not bicker). His wife left him and threw him out the house. 2 of his children want to live with him so that has made him feel better. The sad thing is he hasn't a home. He contacted the council and they are still, 3 months after he was kicked out, looking for a place to live. (he has a very small income).
Anyway the council understood that he was living in his car. One day after a mates birthday he comes back to his car after 4-5 drinks. He falls asleep only to be awoken by a knock at the window. He is breathalised and is given 100 hours community service for being "drunk in charge of a vehicle". The council wrote a letter explaining to the court that it was his home. They didn't care.
Now from both of these cases you could say neither me, nor steve are criminals. I was an idiot but hardly deserving of the label "criminal". Steve certainly isn't.
But then... lets take this example further. Much further.
One night a man is coming home from a late bussiness meeting. Very very late. Missing his family he tries to get back before his wife and kids go to sleep. He isn't speeding, but he is tired, normally he'd have stopped by now but he is but a few miles from home. He may as well continue.
But disaster strikes, he falls asleep. He drives off the road and onto a railway line. He is hit by a train. He survives. But 50 passangers do not. The man, when he comes around is devestated. He has killed so many people, he feels physically sick and can't begin to comprehend the damage he has done. Of course the judge has no choice but to send him to prison. A hardworking human being with a good family who has never been in trouble before goes to prison for a lengthy period of time.
The families of course believe it isn't enough. The judge, to some varying agree knows, that the man he sent to prison is no criminal. But a man who made a terrible mistake.
Looking at that incident and maybe some of you can relate to it. I have been in the car with many people who are driving home tired. From concerts or one day music festivals mainly. Worn out and exhausted my girlfriend drove 100's of miles home and nearly fell asleep. It could have been her, it could have been me... it could have been you.
Of course similar stories are found all the time involving drunk drivers.
What defines a criminal exactly?
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Dringo wrote:
> As for falling asleep at the wheel, or lending a mate a lighter in
> belief of a safe fire... well they are mistakes, errors of judgement.
> Which we've all made or all WILL make.
Yes, but by calling it 'a mistake' you're acknowledging that, in your opinion, it's a wrongdoing. So it doesn't matter if everyone does it at some point, it doesn't make it more acceptable. Of course everyone makes some mistake at some point in their life, whether to do with crime or not, but still, it's a mistake.
If you drink and drive, you deserve punishment. If you drive tired, you stop and have breaks. Otherwise you deserve punishment. My Dad drives hundreds of miles a week; he works away from home, living in the North-west and working in London, Exeter, and York. He stops at service stations, gets out of the car, walks around, has some fresh air, a drink of coffee, or a nap if he's really tired. Despite the fact that this often means he gets to his destination at one or two in the morning, and he has to get up at six or so to go to work. And if he decided one day not to have stops despite being tired and then crashed? I'm pretty sure he'd consider it nothing but his own fault. He wouldn't say "It's just a small mistake not really my fault lol k!"
In fact, I think he totalled a car once when he was really young by driving tired, and considers it his own fault entirely. Not sure of the details, I can check.
> As for falling asleep at the wheel, or lending a mate a lighter in
> belief of a safe fire... well they are mistakes, errors of judgement.
> Which we've all made or all WILL make.
Yes, but by calling it 'a mistake' you're acknowledging that, in your opinion, it's a wrongdoing. So it doesn't matter if everyone does it at some point, it doesn't make it more acceptable. Of course everyone makes some mistake at some point in their life, whether to do with crime or not, but still, it's a mistake.
If you drink and drive, you deserve punishment. If you drive tired, you stop and have breaks. Otherwise you deserve punishment. My Dad drives hundreds of miles a week; he works away from home, living in the North-west and working in London, Exeter, and York. He stops at service stations, gets out of the car, walks around, has some fresh air, a drink of coffee, or a nap if he's really tired. Despite the fact that this often means he gets to his destination at one or two in the morning, and he has to get up at six or so to go to work. And if he decided one day not to have stops despite being tired and then crashed? I'm pretty sure he'd consider it nothing but his own fault. He wouldn't say "It's just a small mistake not really my fault lol k!"
In fact, I think he totalled a car once when he was really young by driving tired, and considers it his own fault entirely. Not sure of the details, I can check.
Dringo wrote:
> I can sympathise with those who fall asleep at the wheel because I've
> been in a car with at least 6 tired drivers.
F***ing hell, they must have been tired if it took 6 of them!
or
Jesus, has he not milked it enough yet?
We'll be reading this forum in 50 years time:
"As you know, I burned down a barn once. I used a zeppo lighter. Zeppo was a Marx brother. Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in London... So, what do you think of the London Underground?"
I can see where Dringo is coming from on this one though.
I don't agree with his example - if you drive tired enough to fall asleep, you're only a stone's throw from a drunk driver in terms of bellendedness.
However, we do make mistakes, and if you're unlucky enough to cause some serious harm/damage, with something relatively minor (unlike falling asleep at the wheel), you could be taking it in the showers as a consequence. And for longer than a 'deliberate' criminal.
I don't really care about the label 'criminal', but the whole thing is just a flaw in the criminal justice system, it's politics - the public/media demand retribution and someone's got to take the blame. The government wouldn't have it any other way.
> I can sympathise with those who fall asleep at the wheel because I've
> been in a car with at least 6 tired drivers.
F***ing hell, they must have been tired if it took 6 of them!
or
Jesus, has he not milked it enough yet?
We'll be reading this forum in 50 years time:
"As you know, I burned down a barn once. I used a zeppo lighter. Zeppo was a Marx brother. Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in London... So, what do you think of the London Underground?"
I can see where Dringo is coming from on this one though.
I don't agree with his example - if you drive tired enough to fall asleep, you're only a stone's throw from a drunk driver in terms of bellendedness.
However, we do make mistakes, and if you're unlucky enough to cause some serious harm/damage, with something relatively minor (unlike falling asleep at the wheel), you could be taking it in the showers as a consequence. And for longer than a 'deliberate' criminal.
I don't really care about the label 'criminal', but the whole thing is just a flaw in the criminal justice system, it's politics - the public/media demand retribution and someone's got to take the blame. The government wouldn't have it any other way.
Duck Fish wrote:
> We'll be reading this forum in 50 years time:
> "As you know, I burned down a barn once. I used a zeppo lighter.
> Zeppo was a Marx brother. Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in
> London... So, what do you think of the London Underground?"
Ahahahahahahaha
> We'll be reading this forum in 50 years time:
> "As you know, I burned down a barn once. I used a zeppo lighter.
> Zeppo was a Marx brother. Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto in
> London... So, what do you think of the London Underground?"
Ahahahahahahaha
I wouldn't say I was milking it. I haven't mentioned the incident for months.
You put my example better.
A driver who falls asleep tired will admit he was at fault. And take the blame and feel terrible for it. But I still couldn't class him as a criminal.
Just an idiot.
You put my example better.
A driver who falls asleep tired will admit he was at fault. And take the blame and feel terrible for it. But I still couldn't class him as a criminal.
Just an idiot.
Here's one my Mum said the other day. A leaf lands on the car. My Mum says "Leaf us alone".
Dringo wrote:
> Come on how can no-one sympathise with that situation?
I don't think the relatives of the passengers that were killed on that train, de-railed by a car that was driven onto the tracks by someone who fell asleep, would sympathise.
If you drive with the knowledge that you are very tired, you are Driving without due care and attention. If you aren't fit to drive, you shouldn't be on the road, whether it is intoxication or fatigue.
Killing or injuring someone through ignorance or recklessness is still a crime. If someone dies because of your ill judgement, regardless of what guise it takes, you should be punished.
> Come on how can no-one sympathise with that situation?
I don't think the relatives of the passengers that were killed on that train, de-railed by a car that was driven onto the tracks by someone who fell asleep, would sympathise.
If you drive with the knowledge that you are very tired, you are Driving without due care and attention. If you aren't fit to drive, you shouldn't be on the road, whether it is intoxication or fatigue.
Killing or injuring someone through ignorance or recklessness is still a crime. If someone dies because of your ill judgement, regardless of what guise it takes, you should be punished.
Yeah, as I say, a sentimental legal system. Punish a man cause the families are upset.
I class a criminal as being a bad man. Someone that makes a mistake like falling asleep at the wheel is a fool, or an idiot... but a bad man? I don't think you can be classed as an evil man based on a mistake whilst driving.
That's all I'm saying, because as my post has pointed out, I've been in that situation and I am not a bad guy. I don't mean to hurt or cause harm to anyone or anything. But I have. Because of my ill judgement. And I've been punished for it, and I say fairly. I destroyed someones property, I pay what I can back and work for the community to make up for the resources that were used.
Fair trade. I accept that.
But I'd overhaul what defines a criminal. I deserve that "punishment" or as I see it "repayment"... but I don't accept the label of criminal. I'm hardly an evil man with the intent to harm.
Neither is a prat who falls asleep at the wheel.
I class a criminal as being a bad man. Someone that makes a mistake like falling asleep at the wheel is a fool, or an idiot... but a bad man? I don't think you can be classed as an evil man based on a mistake whilst driving.
That's all I'm saying, because as my post has pointed out, I've been in that situation and I am not a bad guy. I don't mean to hurt or cause harm to anyone or anything. But I have. Because of my ill judgement. And I've been punished for it, and I say fairly. I destroyed someones property, I pay what I can back and work for the community to make up for the resources that were used.
Fair trade. I accept that.
But I'd overhaul what defines a criminal. I deserve that "punishment" or as I see it "repayment"... but I don't accept the label of criminal. I'm hardly an evil man with the intent to harm.
Neither is a prat who falls asleep at the wheel.
In my opinion intent makes you a criminal. If you go out with the intent to say steal from a shop and do it you are a criminal.
If you don't intend to do something like Dringo or the car driver you aren't a criminal but shall we say just niaeve or a fool. You deserve to be punished for your lapse but in future you should not be disadvantaged like true criminals are.
If you don't intend to do something like Dringo or the car driver you aren't a criminal but shall we say just niaeve or a fool. You deserve to be punished for your lapse but in future you should not be disadvantaged like true criminals are.
Then again, for driving offences, it might be best to keep a record of that for any potential driving jobs.
Or it only gets flagged up depending on your job.
So lets say you drove, fell asleep, and knocked someone down and didn't kill them. You got punished, maybe a few weeks in prison or a community punishment or somet.
You go for a job as a waitrose office employee. They check you up, select the job description, and nothing. Not a thing.
But you go for a job as a lorry driver. They check you up, select the most accurate job description, and bang! a record for driving tired.
Just saying that a criminal record really effects things. I mean I have conviently left mine off my CV.
Or it only gets flagged up depending on your job.
So lets say you drove, fell asleep, and knocked someone down and didn't kill them. You got punished, maybe a few weeks in prison or a community punishment or somet.
You go for a job as a waitrose office employee. They check you up, select the job description, and nothing. Not a thing.
But you go for a job as a lorry driver. They check you up, select the most accurate job description, and bang! a record for driving tired.
Just saying that a criminal record really effects things. I mean I have conviently left mine off my CV.
Dringo wrote:
> Then again, for driving offences, it might be best to keep a record of
> that for any potential driving jobs.
>
> Or it only gets flagged up depending on your job.
>
> So lets say you drove, fell asleep, and knocked someone down and
> didn't kill them. You got punished, maybe a few weeks in prison or a
> community punishment or somet.
>
> You go for a job as a waitrose office employee. They check you up,
> select the job description, and nothing. Not a thing.
>
> But you go for a job as a lorry driver. They check you up, select the
> most accurate job description, and bang! a record for driving tired.
>
>
> Just saying that a criminal record really effects things. I mean I
> have conviently left mine off my CV.
Agreed. If it is relevant to your job it should be left on but if not it should not be disclosed. Like you say with the driving falling asleep at the wheel of a lorry has the potential for a huge disaster and if you apply for a lorry driving job your employer should know.
> Then again, for driving offences, it might be best to keep a record of
> that for any potential driving jobs.
>
> Or it only gets flagged up depending on your job.
>
> So lets say you drove, fell asleep, and knocked someone down and
> didn't kill them. You got punished, maybe a few weeks in prison or a
> community punishment or somet.
>
> You go for a job as a waitrose office employee. They check you up,
> select the job description, and nothing. Not a thing.
>
> But you go for a job as a lorry driver. They check you up, select the
> most accurate job description, and bang! a record for driving tired.
>
>
> Just saying that a criminal record really effects things. I mean I
> have conviently left mine off my CV.
Agreed. If it is relevant to your job it should be left on but if not it should not be disclosed. Like you say with the driving falling asleep at the wheel of a lorry has the potential for a huge disaster and if you apply for a lorry driving job your employer should know.
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