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Well it seems a bunch of toffs who do very little to contribute to society other than allow their dogs to crap on the pavement because they're too rich to have to pick it up and dispose of it have decided that they are the only people in Britain who count and that a democracy involves attacking the government they voted in. Ironic really.
So what's this all about then? Well it seems that the final reading of the bill to ban fox hunting has been read today. A unanimous vote (as far as I am aware) by the MPs of the House of Commons has passed it and all is left is for the snobs in the House of Lords to say yay or nay. Unfortunately, they have said 'nay' the past couple of times, and so the House of Commons have threatened to use one of those ancient laws, such as being allowed to kill a man in Yorkshire on a Sunday with a bow and arrow (I wouldn't test that law if I were you...if I have quoted it right) , which allows them to overturn the ruling by the House of Lords which in this case would result in a complete ban on fox hunting.
This news has caused a huge minority of people large enough to be beaten off by those paid to protect democracy in their flourescant uniforms brandishing truncheons. Right this minute (at time of writing), plenty of homes throughout the UK are left unprotected as a large mob of toffs have stormed London hoping to change the situation by means of violence and terrorism. This I'll get back to.
So what is fox hunting?
Fox hunting is what some of these toffs consider a 'sport', or a means of recreation. Others consider it a 'livelyhood', as a means of pest control. It involves a bunch of rediculously dressed snobs on the back of horses blowing a horn that is hardly going to unite the people of Gondor, which commands a huge pack of dogs to chase after a defenseless animal in order to rip it to shreds. This method was used a long long time ago and is still used today. These snobby toffs still believe that this is the most humane way to control the population of foxes in the countryside. They also claim that they shoot the animals so they don't actually suffer. Is that before or after they've chased them across various distances and allowed a pack of dogs to sink their teeth into them?
That isn't the entire story though. Fox Hunting, should it be allowed to continue, should only take place on the land owned by the person who hires the hunters. However, once a fox has been spotted, the toffs don't care who's land they violate, who gets in their way, as long as they get their trophy. A dead piece of fur. Over the years there have been articles on kids being frightened incredibly by toffs trampling their horses across gardens, articles on pets being killed by the dogs, and so on. It only takes a search on the various news websites to find stories like this.
So what do the toffs say about it?
One toff on the news expressed his views along the lines of this pathetic cry for sympathy, "If fox hunting is banned, I will lose my home. I will lose my livelihood. The hounds will have to go. I'm not trained for anything else, so I will have to train to work."
Oh my! Welcome to the life the rest of us lead. We have to work for a living. We don't get to play a barbaric sport for a living. We have to take part in training and earn a real wage, as opposed to riding horses and playing fetch with a fox instead of a stick. It's not that they're afraid they'll lose their jobs. It's that they're afraid to get jobs!
So how do these toffs plan to make things go their way? They turn a peaceful protest into a mob attack. Storm the houses of parliament and think a bit of shouting is going to change the minds of those listening to the majority view of the people. I wont deny that the majority view isn't always right, but I feel that in this situation, in this democracy, the same argument that the protesters were using, again ironic, that fox hunting should be banned if only to give these toffs a reality check.
On the news today, I saw a woman with a big cut around her eye shouting, "I wasn't even protesting! A policeman did this (points to eye)! And I'm a firm believer in the law! So tell me this: What was a non-protester doing in the middle of a huge crowd of protesters outside the Houses of Parliament? Somehow I doubt she was having a picnic. And the rest of them suprised that the police hit them with their truncheons. What did they expect the police to do? Hand them boxing gloves to batter the MPs they voted in?
Overall, this shows the utter rediculous nature of the inbred toffs. They're too afraid to work, and instead of having to find some other way to play, they're forced to find jobs that aren't quite a horse-ride in the park. The majority of people in the UK want an end to this barbaric sport and all agree there are plenty of other more humane ways of handling the overwhelming fox crisis. I mean, it's getting so bad that you can't even walk the streets now incase a fox runs away from you like a scared puppy! Disgusting!
So what's this all about then? Well it seems that the final reading of the bill to ban fox hunting has been read today. A unanimous vote (as far as I am aware) by the MPs of the House of Commons has passed it and all is left is for the snobs in the House of Lords to say yay or nay. Unfortunately, they have said 'nay' the past couple of times, and so the House of Commons have threatened to use one of those ancient laws, such as being allowed to kill a man in Yorkshire on a Sunday with a bow and arrow (I wouldn't test that law if I were you...if I have quoted it right) , which allows them to overturn the ruling by the House of Lords which in this case would result in a complete ban on fox hunting.
This news has caused a huge minority of people large enough to be beaten off by those paid to protect democracy in their flourescant uniforms brandishing truncheons. Right this minute (at time of writing), plenty of homes throughout the UK are left unprotected as a large mob of toffs have stormed London hoping to change the situation by means of violence and terrorism. This I'll get back to.
So what is fox hunting?
Fox hunting is what some of these toffs consider a 'sport', or a means of recreation. Others consider it a 'livelyhood', as a means of pest control. It involves a bunch of rediculously dressed snobs on the back of horses blowing a horn that is hardly going to unite the people of Gondor, which commands a huge pack of dogs to chase after a defenseless animal in order to rip it to shreds. This method was used a long long time ago and is still used today. These snobby toffs still believe that this is the most humane way to control the population of foxes in the countryside. They also claim that they shoot the animals so they don't actually suffer. Is that before or after they've chased them across various distances and allowed a pack of dogs to sink their teeth into them?
That isn't the entire story though. Fox Hunting, should it be allowed to continue, should only take place on the land owned by the person who hires the hunters. However, once a fox has been spotted, the toffs don't care who's land they violate, who gets in their way, as long as they get their trophy. A dead piece of fur. Over the years there have been articles on kids being frightened incredibly by toffs trampling their horses across gardens, articles on pets being killed by the dogs, and so on. It only takes a search on the various news websites to find stories like this.
So what do the toffs say about it?
One toff on the news expressed his views along the lines of this pathetic cry for sympathy, "If fox hunting is banned, I will lose my home. I will lose my livelihood. The hounds will have to go. I'm not trained for anything else, so I will have to train to work."
Oh my! Welcome to the life the rest of us lead. We have to work for a living. We don't get to play a barbaric sport for a living. We have to take part in training and earn a real wage, as opposed to riding horses and playing fetch with a fox instead of a stick. It's not that they're afraid they'll lose their jobs. It's that they're afraid to get jobs!
So how do these toffs plan to make things go their way? They turn a peaceful protest into a mob attack. Storm the houses of parliament and think a bit of shouting is going to change the minds of those listening to the majority view of the people. I wont deny that the majority view isn't always right, but I feel that in this situation, in this democracy, the same argument that the protesters were using, again ironic, that fox hunting should be banned if only to give these toffs a reality check.
On the news today, I saw a woman with a big cut around her eye shouting, "I wasn't even protesting! A policeman did this (points to eye)! And I'm a firm believer in the law! So tell me this: What was a non-protester doing in the middle of a huge crowd of protesters outside the Houses of Parliament? Somehow I doubt she was having a picnic. And the rest of them suprised that the police hit them with their truncheons. What did they expect the police to do? Hand them boxing gloves to batter the MPs they voted in?
Overall, this shows the utter rediculous nature of the inbred toffs. They're too afraid to work, and instead of having to find some other way to play, they're forced to find jobs that aren't quite a horse-ride in the park. The majority of people in the UK want an end to this barbaric sport and all agree there are plenty of other more humane ways of handling the overwhelming fox crisis. I mean, it's getting so bad that you can't even walk the streets now incase a fox runs away from you like a scared puppy! Disgusting!
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What argument? That it's cruel to foxes? Just as hypocritical as 'traditional'. I'm sure someone in this thread will have said it, but because a fox is cuddly and looks kinda cute means suburbia gets all angry because The Natural World on BBC1 showed them in a nice burrow getting food for their young or something.
And as for it being an upper-class hobby, what's that got to do with anything? Just being hunters are upper-class, they're not entitled to their sport because, what, the lower classes don't hunt therefore it's wrong? It's class prejudice to use that argument.
Oh, and comparing animal cruelty to child abuse and murder? Mm, they're on the same level.
What actually gets me the most about this whole argument is the fact that the animal is actually only second-tier in the issue. It's a thinly-veiled class eruption again, and people get stereotyped into one group or the other. I'm middle-class, yet I get labelled a toff, and I obviously hate all animals. I actually study Ecology at uni, and I'm involved in conservation projects linked to that. Fox-hunting protests aren't animal-related anymore, it's class.
And as for it being an upper-class hobby, what's that got to do with anything? Just being hunters are upper-class, they're not entitled to their sport because, what, the lower classes don't hunt therefore it's wrong? It's class prejudice to use that argument.
Oh, and comparing animal cruelty to child abuse and murder? Mm, they're on the same level.
What actually gets me the most about this whole argument is the fact that the animal is actually only second-tier in the issue. It's a thinly-veiled class eruption again, and people get stereotyped into one group or the other. I'm middle-class, yet I get labelled a toff, and I obviously hate all animals. I actually study Ecology at uni, and I'm involved in conservation projects linked to that. Fox-hunting protests aren't animal-related anymore, it's class.
Stryke wrote:
> Fox hunting is part of the English countryside tradition. When the
> hunt rides through my village, it's a great sight. Part of the
> countryside identity. And before anyone starts, I'm not a 'toff'. I
> just like the countryside and my little country village and the
> traditions that go along with that.
Child slavery used to be an English tradition. As did kiddy brothels. And human sacrifice. We got rid of them because they were rightly considered barbaric. For all the complaints of the Fox Hunting brigade, I've yet to hear a single cogent argument that addresses;
- the fact that this is a right enjoyed mainly by what is traditionally referred to as the ruling classes
- the fact that foxes can (and are) killed by farmers using guns; apparently being hunted by hounds for hours before, exhausted, being torn to tiny pieces is more humane than being shot.
>
> So don't use a environmentalist argument as excuse to rid yourself of
> middle/upper class hatred. Dirty milk-stealing mine-bombing Tories,
> eh? Damn them all, especially the rich ones.
Wow, sarcasm; that is so cool...
Pardon me but, apart from "It's traditional", you haven't actually rebutted the argument. At all.
> Fox hunting is part of the English countryside tradition. When the
> hunt rides through my village, it's a great sight. Part of the
> countryside identity. And before anyone starts, I'm not a 'toff'. I
> just like the countryside and my little country village and the
> traditions that go along with that.
Child slavery used to be an English tradition. As did kiddy brothels. And human sacrifice. We got rid of them because they were rightly considered barbaric. For all the complaints of the Fox Hunting brigade, I've yet to hear a single cogent argument that addresses;
- the fact that this is a right enjoyed mainly by what is traditionally referred to as the ruling classes
- the fact that foxes can (and are) killed by farmers using guns; apparently being hunted by hounds for hours before, exhausted, being torn to tiny pieces is more humane than being shot.
>
> So don't use a environmentalist argument as excuse to rid yourself of
> middle/upper class hatred. Dirty milk-stealing mine-bombing Tories,
> eh? Damn them all, especially the rich ones.
Wow, sarcasm; that is so cool...
Pardon me but, apart from "It's traditional", you haven't actually rebutted the argument. At all.
Paradox: wrote:
>
> The law is that you can kill a Scotsman on a sunday after nightfall
> with a bow and arrow within the city walls of York. But close enough,
> for an outsider :-)
--
Mm, I heard that (I'm at York uni). There's a really annoying Scotsman on my course, I'm willing to try it.
Anyway, I haven't read most of this thread, but labelling fox-hunters all "toffs" is a remarkably ignorant view and kind of labels you in that age-old sterotype of righteous working-class wannabe.
Fox hunting is part of the English countryside tradition. When the hunt rides through my village, it's a great sight. Part of the countryside identity. And before anyone starts, I'm not a 'toff'. I just like the countryside and my little country village and the traditions that go along with that.
So don't use a environmentalist argument as excuse to rid yourself of middle/upper class hatred. Dirty milk-stealing mine-bombing Tories, eh? Damn them all, especially the rich ones.
>
> The law is that you can kill a Scotsman on a sunday after nightfall
> with a bow and arrow within the city walls of York. But close enough,
> for an outsider :-)
--
Mm, I heard that (I'm at York uni). There's a really annoying Scotsman on my course, I'm willing to try it.
Anyway, I haven't read most of this thread, but labelling fox-hunters all "toffs" is a remarkably ignorant view and kind of labels you in that age-old sterotype of righteous working-class wannabe.
Fox hunting is part of the English countryside tradition. When the hunt rides through my village, it's a great sight. Part of the countryside identity. And before anyone starts, I'm not a 'toff'. I just like the countryside and my little country village and the traditions that go along with that.
So don't use a environmentalist argument as excuse to rid yourself of middle/upper class hatred. Dirty milk-stealing mine-bombing Tories, eh? Damn them all, especially the rich ones.
Just read in the newspaper, yet another "accident" where a boy and his dad were out walking their dog at night only to be shot in the head by hunters illegally 'lamping' (shooting foxes & rabbits at night with torches). This is the 3rd incident in just a few weeks. MP Martin Salter said 'lamping' remained the most effective method of fox control. Unfortunately with a ban on fox hunting there is likely to be more of this going on.
I'm sure there are other ways to control the fox population than having to resort to blood sports or going out at night with a rifle and your mates and just shooting anything that moves.
I'm sure there are other ways to control the fox population than having to resort to blood sports or going out at night with a rifle and your mates and just shooting anything that moves.
I agree a class war shouldn't have to take place.
However, my rant was partially because of the way the 'toffs', as I repeatedly call(ed) them, kept talking as if they're the only ones who have a say.
Not a direct quote, but I remember, "You call this a democracy?"
If I was an MP, I would have responded, "Yes. Yes I do."
However, my rant was partially because of the way the 'toffs', as I repeatedly call(ed) them, kept talking as if they're the only ones who have a say.
Not a direct quote, but I remember, "You call this a democracy?"
If I was an MP, I would have responded, "Yes. Yes I do."
pb wrote:
> So you figure that the arguement against hounds tearing foxes apart
> for sport while people watch isn't a moral one? Or that this is not
> really a logical way to kill foxes (be they the scum you suggest or
> not) and that it's just there because of tradition?
No, I argue neither of that.
I say that I disagree with the ban because it is because of class, not what actually matters.
> So you figure that the arguement against hounds tearing foxes apart
> for sport while people watch isn't a moral one? Or that this is not
> really a logical way to kill foxes (be they the scum you suggest or
> not) and that it's just there because of tradition?
No, I argue neither of that.
I say that I disagree with the ban because it is because of class, not what actually matters.
Yes, some chickens are kept in battery farms. I wasn't denying that there aren't any kept in those conditions. My comment was referring to that being as a result of a ban on fox hunting with dogs.
As for animal rights. We need protein to survive, right? So we need to eat meat. (I know there are other alternatives, but there are loads of people allergic to nuts) So there has to be an acceptable level of animal farming to provide this unnatural quantity of humans with protein.
And to carry on the animal rights argument. Horses. They're farmed as tools. Tools for sport and recreation, and in some cases, transport and agricultural reasons. They are made slaves the minute they're born.
They're forced to carry humans. Forced to endure wars. Forced to race for human enjoyment.
They break a leg in the grand national because some humans decided they had to jump a rediculously high fence. Instead of allowing them to heal and enjoy the rest of their lives in a field being taken care of, they're shot because they wont earn any more money. Heartless toffs.
As for animal rights. We need protein to survive, right? So we need to eat meat. (I know there are other alternatives, but there are loads of people allergic to nuts) So there has to be an acceptable level of animal farming to provide this unnatural quantity of humans with protein.
And to carry on the animal rights argument. Horses. They're farmed as tools. Tools for sport and recreation, and in some cases, transport and agricultural reasons. They are made slaves the minute they're born.
They're forced to carry humans. Forced to endure wars. Forced to race for human enjoyment.
They break a leg in the grand national because some humans decided they had to jump a rediculously high fence. Instead of allowing them to heal and enjoy the rest of their lives in a field being taken care of, they're shot because they wont earn any more money. Heartless toffs.
Everyone knows animals fall into one of two categories
Those that are cute and cuddly or can do a job for us humans get to live
Those that are ugly or taste good die :-D
Those that are cute and cuddly or can do a job for us humans get to live
Those that are ugly or taste good die :-D
Edgy wrote:
> The difference is, the fox killing an animal for food is nature.
Yeah, all I'm saying though is I reckon a lot of people are against the killing of foxes because they tend to look cute and innocent and cuddly. I'm just saying foxes kill as well, they're not really cute and cuddly when devouring a chicken...
> As for farm animals being kept in battery farms - utter bullcrap.
Erm, as far as I know this is why the chickens end up with the burns on their legs...
> Fox Hunting is not illegal. Fox Hunting with Dogs is what is going to
> be made illegal. You can still shoot them...just not attack them with
> a pack of dogs.
>
> As for the burns. Tescos seem to be the worst around here. I've seen
> more black burns on chicken legs than any other supermarket. So
> they're hardly all free range as it is...not that a fox hunting with
> dogs ban will make a difference to farming methods at all...well,
> except for the stubborn farmers who will change just to make their
> point.
I'm not saying the fox hunting issue will have any bearing on farming, all I'm saying is it seems a bit hypocritical to be protecting the 'rights' of certain animals not to be slaughtered when we're quite happy to keep in captive, systematically kill, and then sell and eat other animals... I'm just pointing out the whole animal rights thing and the rights of an animal to be treated humanely is a hugely wide issue and is by no means just connected to foxes...
> The difference is, the fox killing an animal for food is nature.
Yeah, all I'm saying though is I reckon a lot of people are against the killing of foxes because they tend to look cute and innocent and cuddly. I'm just saying foxes kill as well, they're not really cute and cuddly when devouring a chicken...
> As for farm animals being kept in battery farms - utter bullcrap.
Erm, as far as I know this is why the chickens end up with the burns on their legs...
> Fox Hunting is not illegal. Fox Hunting with Dogs is what is going to
> be made illegal. You can still shoot them...just not attack them with
> a pack of dogs.
>
> As for the burns. Tescos seem to be the worst around here. I've seen
> more black burns on chicken legs than any other supermarket. So
> they're hardly all free range as it is...not that a fox hunting with
> dogs ban will make a difference to farming methods at all...well,
> except for the stubborn farmers who will change just to make their
> point.
I'm not saying the fox hunting issue will have any bearing on farming, all I'm saying is it seems a bit hypocritical to be protecting the 'rights' of certain animals not to be slaughtered when we're quite happy to keep in captive, systematically kill, and then sell and eat other animals... I'm just pointing out the whole animal rights thing and the rights of an animal to be treated humanely is a hugely wide issue and is by no means just connected to foxes...
Mav wrote:
> My point is that there is no moral substance to this ban
So you figure that the arguement against hounds tearing foxes apart for sport while people watch isn't a moral one? Or that this is not really a logical way to kill foxes (be they the scum you suggest or not) and that it's just there because of tradition?
> My point is that there is no moral substance to this ban
So you figure that the arguement against hounds tearing foxes apart for sport while people watch isn't a moral one? Or that this is not really a logical way to kill foxes (be they the scum you suggest or not) and that it's just there because of tradition?
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