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Anyway, I'm rather bored of MMORPGs, and this is why:
- They require too much time and 'dedication' to play. Starting characters struggle up the first few rungs of the ladder and generally don't have much fun killing bats and badgers. What's more, this period of crapness generally tends to be the 'free trial' period, which stops players from seeing if they'll like what's ahead. What I would like is a system that doesn't require that much time, where you don't really need to develop your character and still survive - just by playing it smart. Maybe using small battles - like in real life ? Where you can lose and still not make the game end.
- I don't think the 'epic storyline' concepts particularly work, because, although factions do struggle against each other, it's not really financially viable to have one side defeat the other, as it would bring the game to an end. This makes them seem rather futile to me. I, personally, would love to participate in an epic storyline with a lot of other people, and I'd love to see it come to a successful (or tragic) end.
- Everyone is out of character. 'kool, U kil orc dude? K? get HP.' does not befit a Knight of the Holy Order, or whatever, nor does 'WANNA CYBER?' befit a Ghuk alien from Nan-toobuk IV. Character development is a hard nut to crack - Diablo II was one way to do it but it's not a MMORPG - Diablo II consists of many single games which makes it possible for the game to adapt to the player.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how any of these can be overcome? The one that puts me off the most is definitely the first. I'd love to play RPG style games online, but avoid the commitment and intensity associated with Everquest - I'd rather dip in and out as I can with Counterstrike.
Pay-as-you-go MMORPGs?
What changes would you like to see made? Where do you see the problems lying with MMORPGs? What do you like most of them? Do you look at each new release and groan 'This has one gimmick, and is identical to everything else' as I do, or do you hold a lot of enthusiasm for them?
The monthly fee is a bit of a problem - not everyone has a credit card or is willing to pay a monthly fee.
I am split over this one.
Point 1 - If a game is good enough, it is not a problem to put 'time and dedication' into it. If it is a properly good game, that is what you will want to do.
Unfortunately, that thing called "real life" occasionally gets in the way. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to play a game as much as you'd like. Exactly, we're not all 15 year olds ditching classes. But really, those things eat loads of time. It's the major reason why I don't play any - I just don't have the time. If you only spend a few hours a week you're bound to be pretty pathetic in the game so there's no fun so why bother?
Point 2 - The epic storyline approach is very, very good. Sadly, it does not work. Anyone who is not directly involved either wishes they could be but can't get involved for whatever reason (i.e. they are too shat/new/stupid/lazy), or wishes it was not happening as it interferes with their gaming experience. So unless everyone wants one, that is strike one against it.
On the plus side, they do give the game direction, and build community, and help develop group identity. It also means that people may be able to get a helping hand from the start if recruiting is going on. Sadly, as most MMORPG players are elitest twits, this rarely happens. But, one more bad point here, they do tend to be either too simple and almost like a quest that does not really matter, or so complex any events that do pass are either so pathetic they are ignored, or so important they swing the entire campaign. Somewhat realistic, yes, but not really very desirable in a community game, as it leads to people feeling left out.
Point 3 - Not everyone is out of character. The problem is, as games are made to make people money, they aim at the largest market, meaning anyone can play. This, by default, sadly includes absolute idiots.
I 'completed' the Legend of Mir trial, and throughout around 20-30 hours of play, group conversations tend to consist of.
"Want 2 grp?"
"This xp is shat"
"Pull faster"
"Let's attack that *Insert name of ridiculously powerful creature here*"
"stfu!"
"n00b"
"kthxbye"
I hate it. I want to take these people, slather their genitals with catnip and hurl them into a cage of rabid mountain lions. And I fear that it is always going to be like this. Because for every Role Player there are 20 moronic children with no wit or interest in the game besdies being better than other people. On a side note though, the servers in America have a couple of dedicated role playing servers that people can stick to. I've no idea what they're like, but I guess it is one option to seperate those who want to roleplay and socialise from those who want to just exploit a game engine.
Another problem is late comers. A lot of these MMORPG's aren't very friendly towards people who just entered the game without knowing a thing. Especially if the game has been released half a year ago or even longer. Often the community shuns newbies, it doesn't help them, or kills them. I heard this was often the case on the USA servers of Ultima. The European servers are more friendly in general apparantly but still...
Right, it takes about 15 hours to get a character up to a decent level. When you buy a new game, do you spend at least 15 hours on it in the first week or two of owning it? I would say that generally, yes, people will spend at least that long playing it. And as with MMORPGs you open up more of the game world as you progress, after those 2 weeks, of say 10 hours play a week, you suddenly realise you can now go to big doomy temple of nasty spiders and not die, maybe even get a decent sword/armour/cloak/gain loads of experience and gold. So basically it is longetivity.
I think the problem I am complaining about may not be the amount of time you must invest in the game, but the fact that because the better games are faily un-directed and freeform, the first few hours of play may seem completely and utterly shat, as you have no idea what to do or how to do it. It is just a matter of can you be bothered to work for your enjoyment? That sounds stupid, but it is so much rewarding when you become a grand master mage (or whatever), can afford that new shiny katana of much-death-giving, or finally defeat that devil of an orc mage that killed you every time before. It is risk vs reward, combined with input and output. The more you are willing to put, the more you will get out.
However, to an extent, you will get more out of the game if you spend more time on it, but that is just common sense really, and stands true for any game. Even better, in MMORPGs, the end result does not mean credits roll. It means you open up an entire new level of play. You can never do everything, because there is so much to do anyway, and more is being added all the time.
You can generalise as much as you want about the genre, but that is pointless. No genre is going to consist of entirely perfect games, or even mostly good ones, so the generalisation is pointless. I could quite easily say that generally RTS games are shat, looking at all the clones and rip-offs there are, but that does not make it true. Some of my favourite games of all time are RTS games. Same stands here - if you are talking about how the genre can improve, you must take the most advanced example of it, else you are moaning about improvements that have already been made.
If we say that not enough developers are picking up on the improvements some games have shown, then I stand up. On the other hand, you cannot expect a game that has to cater for so many tastes to ever be perfect for everyone. Or anyone, in fact. Do you want invincible new characters? But then they can slaughter the higher level characters, which makes the whole thing pointless, and you might as well remove any way of improving. Either that, or remove the PvP. But a lot of people play mainly for the PvP, so then you alienate another section of your market.
Basically, if you do not enjoy the games because they take up too much time, or you do not feel they are fun to start with, don't play them, I suppose. I think Rally games are shat, but I do not go around grumbling about how they have too few tracks and car types, only 4 cars per race, and are all samey, because that is what Rally games are, and if I don't like it, it is my problem, not the developers. Or are you saying that games should always appeal to everyone?
Look at the number of people playing MMORPGs. That is somewhere near how many people do not find what you complain about a problem, or are willing/able to put in more hours to play. I don't think a genre which mostly involves walking around talking to bearded Americans has much of a future. I wouldn't enjoy that in real life, so why should I have to endure it in a game?
How many MMPORGS do you think will be a success. 6, 10, a dozen maybe 2 dozen?
3rd World, A Tale in the Desert, Adellion, Ages of Athiria,Anarchy Online, Anarchy Online: Shadowlands, Arcanity, Archaean: Massive Online World, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Asheron's Call: Dark Majesty, Astonia 3, Athanasia, Atriarch, BattleTech 3025, BigWorld: Citizen Zero, Black Moon Chronicles: Winds of War, Caeron3000, Call of the Warlords, Charr: The Grimm Fate, City of Heroes, Clan Lord, Dark Age of Camelot, Dark Age of Camelot: Shrouded Isles, Dark Ages: Online Roleplaying, Darkfall, Dawn, DOMINION, Dragon Empires, Earth and Beyond, El Kardian, Elemental Saga, Endless Ages, EVE Online: The Second Genesis , EverQuest, EverQuest II, Fallen Age, Fate, Final Fantasy XI, Gladius Online, Helbreath: The Crusade, Highlander Online, HORIZONS: Empires of Istaria, Jumpgate, Last Kingdom, Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle, Lineage: The Bloodpledge, Meridian 59, Midgard, Mimesis Online, Mistmare, Neocron...
MMPORGs the industry's greatest mistake.
Thanks for reading,
LF.
- They require too much time and 'dedication' to play. Starting characters struggle up the first few rungs of the ladder and generally don't have much fun killing bats and badgers. What's more, this period of crapness generally tends to be the 'free trial' period, which stops players from seeing if they'll like what's ahead. What I would like is a system that doesn't require that much time, where you don't really need to develop your character and still survive - just by playing it smart. Maybe using small battles - like in real life ? Where you can lose and still not make the game end.
- I don't think the 'epic storyline' concepts particularly work, because, although factions do struggle against each other, it's not really financially viable to have one side defeat the other, as it would bring the game to an end. This makes them seem rather futile to me. I, personally, would love to participate in an epic storyline with a lot of other people, and I'd love to see it come to a successful (or tragic) end.
- Everyone is out of character. 'kool, U kil orc dude? K? get HP.' does not befit a Knight of the Holy Order, or whatever, nor does 'WANNA CYBER?' befit a Ghuk alien from Nan-toobuk IV. Character development is a hard nut to crack - Diablo II was one way to do it but it's not a MMORPG - Diablo II consists of many single games which makes it possible for the game to adapt to the player.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how any of these can be overcome? The one that puts me off the most is definitely the first. I'd love to play RPG style games online, but avoid the commitment and intensity associated with Everquest - I'd rather dip in and out as I can with Counterstrike.
Pay-as-you-go MMORPGs?
What changes would you like to see made? Where do you see the problems lying with MMORPGs? What do you like most of them? Do you look at each new release and groan 'This has one gimmick, and is identical to everything else' as I do, or do you hold a lot of enthusiasm for them?
The monthly fee is a bit of a problem - not everyone has a credit card or is willing to pay a monthly fee.
I am split over this one.
Point 1 - If a game is good enough, it is not a problem to put 'time and dedication' into it. If it is a properly good game, that is what you will want to do.
Unfortunately, that thing called "real life" occasionally gets in the way. Sometimes you simply don't have the time to play a game as much as you'd like. Exactly, we're not all 15 year olds ditching classes. But really, those things eat loads of time. It's the major reason why I don't play any - I just don't have the time. If you only spend a few hours a week you're bound to be pretty pathetic in the game so there's no fun so why bother?
Point 2 - The epic storyline approach is very, very good. Sadly, it does not work. Anyone who is not directly involved either wishes they could be but can't get involved for whatever reason (i.e. they are too shat/new/stupid/lazy), or wishes it was not happening as it interferes with their gaming experience. So unless everyone wants one, that is strike one against it.
On the plus side, they do give the game direction, and build community, and help develop group identity. It also means that people may be able to get a helping hand from the start if recruiting is going on. Sadly, as most MMORPG players are elitest twits, this rarely happens. But, one more bad point here, they do tend to be either too simple and almost like a quest that does not really matter, or so complex any events that do pass are either so pathetic they are ignored, or so important they swing the entire campaign. Somewhat realistic, yes, but not really very desirable in a community game, as it leads to people feeling left out.
Point 3 - Not everyone is out of character. The problem is, as games are made to make people money, they aim at the largest market, meaning anyone can play. This, by default, sadly includes absolute idiots.
I 'completed' the Legend of Mir trial, and throughout around 20-30 hours of play, group conversations tend to consist of.
"Want 2 grp?"
"This xp is shat"
"Pull faster"
"Let's attack that *Insert name of ridiculously powerful creature here*"
"stfu!"
"n00b"
"kthxbye"
I hate it. I want to take these people, slather their genitals with catnip and hurl them into a cage of rabid mountain lions. And I fear that it is always going to be like this. Because for every Role Player there are 20 moronic children with no wit or interest in the game besdies being better than other people. On a side note though, the servers in America have a couple of dedicated role playing servers that people can stick to. I've no idea what they're like, but I guess it is one option to seperate those who want to roleplay and socialise from those who want to just exploit a game engine.
Another problem is late comers. A lot of these MMORPG's aren't very friendly towards people who just entered the game without knowing a thing. Especially if the game has been released half a year ago or even longer. Often the community shuns newbies, it doesn't help them, or kills them. I heard this was often the case on the USA servers of Ultima. The European servers are more friendly in general apparantly but still...
Right, it takes about 15 hours to get a character up to a decent level. When you buy a new game, do you spend at least 15 hours on it in the first week or two of owning it? I would say that generally, yes, people will spend at least that long playing it. And as with MMORPGs you open up more of the game world as you progress, after those 2 weeks, of say 10 hours play a week, you suddenly realise you can now go to big doomy temple of nasty spiders and not die, maybe even get a decent sword/armour/cloak/gain loads of experience and gold. So basically it is longetivity.
I think the problem I am complaining about may not be the amount of time you must invest in the game, but the fact that because the better games are faily un-directed and freeform, the first few hours of play may seem completely and utterly shat, as you have no idea what to do or how to do it. It is just a matter of can you be bothered to work for your enjoyment? That sounds stupid, but it is so much rewarding when you become a grand master mage (or whatever), can afford that new shiny katana of much-death-giving, or finally defeat that devil of an orc mage that killed you every time before. It is risk vs reward, combined with input and output. The more you are willing to put, the more you will get out.
However, to an extent, you will get more out of the game if you spend more time on it, but that is just common sense really, and stands true for any game. Even better, in MMORPGs, the end result does not mean credits roll. It means you open up an entire new level of play. You can never do everything, because there is so much to do anyway, and more is being added all the time.
You can generalise as much as you want about the genre, but that is pointless. No genre is going to consist of entirely perfect games, or even mostly good ones, so the generalisation is pointless. I could quite easily say that generally RTS games are shat, looking at all the clones and rip-offs there are, but that does not make it true. Some of my favourite games of all time are RTS games. Same stands here - if you are talking about how the genre can improve, you must take the most advanced example of it, else you are moaning about improvements that have already been made.
If we say that not enough developers are picking up on the improvements some games have shown, then I stand up. On the other hand, you cannot expect a game that has to cater for so many tastes to ever be perfect for everyone. Or anyone, in fact. Do you want invincible new characters? But then they can slaughter the higher level characters, which makes the whole thing pointless, and you might as well remove any way of improving. Either that, or remove the PvP. But a lot of people play mainly for the PvP, so then you alienate another section of your market.
Basically, if you do not enjoy the games because they take up too much time, or you do not feel they are fun to start with, don't play them, I suppose. I think Rally games are shat, but I do not go around grumbling about how they have too few tracks and car types, only 4 cars per race, and are all samey, because that is what Rally games are, and if I don't like it, it is my problem, not the developers. Or are you saying that games should always appeal to everyone?
Look at the number of people playing MMORPGs. That is somewhere near how many people do not find what you complain about a problem, or are willing/able to put in more hours to play. I don't think a genre which mostly involves walking around talking to bearded Americans has much of a future. I wouldn't enjoy that in real life, so why should I have to endure it in a game?
How many MMPORGS do you think will be a success. 6, 10, a dozen maybe 2 dozen?
3rd World, A Tale in the Desert, Adellion, Ages of Athiria,Anarchy Online, Anarchy Online: Shadowlands, Arcanity, Archaean: Massive Online World, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, Asheron's Call: Dark Majesty, Astonia 3, Athanasia, Atriarch, BattleTech 3025, BigWorld: Citizen Zero, Black Moon Chronicles: Winds of War, Caeron3000, Call of the Warlords, Charr: The Grimm Fate, City of Heroes, Clan Lord, Dark Age of Camelot, Dark Age of Camelot: Shrouded Isles, Dark Ages: Online Roleplaying, Darkfall, Dawn, DOMINION, Dragon Empires, Earth and Beyond, El Kardian, Elemental Saga, Endless Ages, EVE Online: The Second Genesis , EverQuest, EverQuest II, Fallen Age, Fate, Final Fantasy XI, Gladius Online, Helbreath: The Crusade, Highlander Online, HORIZONS: Empires of Istaria, Jumpgate, Last Kingdom, Lineage II: The Chaotic Chronicle, Lineage: The Bloodpledge, Meridian 59, Midgard, Mimesis Online, Mistmare, Neocron...
MMPORGs the industry's greatest mistake.
Thanks for reading,
LF.
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i played Legend of Mir for about 2 months and the first month was fine. I got to level 23 and joined a guild and it was going well. Then suddenly a group of pk'ers started going around killing everyone and nicking all your items. It's fine the first few times but as soon as you leave a town to get some money for items you don't expect to keep getting killed. It ruined my enjoyment and i never played a again. Plus the fact the staff don't even bother to do anything or help with your questions was another reason i gave up
gamezfreak wrote:
> er-no wrote:
> and StarWars Galaxies.
>
> On PC or XBOX? both online.
Beta is on PC so I will probably continue on that platform. Although if I am chosen I will have to buy a new PC just for it.
:-D My 233 really needs an upgrade now.
> er-no wrote:
> and StarWars Galaxies.
>
> On PC or XBOX? both online.
Beta is on PC so I will probably continue on that platform. Although if I am chosen I will have to buy a new PC just for it.
:-D My 233 really needs an upgrade now.
er-no wrote:
> and StarWars Galaxies.
On PC or XBOX? both online.
> and StarWars Galaxies.
On PC or XBOX? both online.
I have to say. Legend of MIR has been the only MMORPG I have kept on playing. I have quitted twice but my guild decided they would pay for me to continue to play. Which isn't that bad. I have a few characters on the servers there and the new patch that has just been released is so terrible it makes me want the game to fail.
I am suprised that you left though FM. At one point you loved that game. Can I adopt your characters if you aren't using them anymore?
Also, I believe I still have faith in TWO MMORPG's.
CityofHeros and StarWars Galaxies.
Applied for beta for both.
I am suprised that you left though FM. At one point you loved that game. Can I adopt your characters if you aren't using them anymore?
Also, I believe I still have faith in TWO MMORPG's.
CityofHeros and StarWars Galaxies.
Applied for beta for both.
Legend of Mir is a particularly bad example of how a MMORPG should be run. For a start, it's Korean coding translated into English by Italians, leaving some very awkward wordings from some NPCs (non-player characters) ingame.
Then there's the bugs, Mir is full of them, and each time a bug appears it takes around 3 months to fix it, but the fix usually generates more bugs at the same time.
In theory it's a great game, in practice, due to the mismanagement of its running, it's cack, full of script kiddies, hackers, conartists and cheats. Not a community as such, more a cesspit of humanity. (I've levelled characters to lvl 35 on both of their servers, never again...).
As Lawless Fever pointed out, one of the major drawbacks is the difference in levels between characters, as not everyone can play full-time. As with most MMORPGs, the kiddy bunking off school to create a character of the 99th level will always have an advantage over the casual gamer, not through skill, but just through literally hard work. This shouldn't be what games are about. Games should be about a level playing field.
Therefore I propose a change in MMORPGs. How about when you login, you're just your character, no levelling required. Same for everyone else. Same armor, same abilities, same equipment. So everyone is on an equal footing.
The 'skill' would then come into play in the way PvP battles or defeating monsters were organised. Instead of having to put in 10 hours a day to get to a level where you can carry the DeathSmite Sword and defeat the WarbleKnob with 10 blows without getting eaten, how about everyone has an equal chance of defeating the WarbleKnob by following a particular sequence of key depressions via visual or audible prompts during battles. (Yes, I know, touch typists would rule the universe, but we have to start somewhere).
Then there's the reward for defeating the WarbleKnob. It doesn't have to be the DeathSmite Mk.II with added Smiting, it could be a new addition to your base of operations, like plumbing, a jacuzzi, a new rug, a satellite dish etc., or maybe a new hairdo for your avatar, or perhaps even an item of jewellery that is just that, an item of jewellery to make you look slightly different. At least this way it doesn't empower you and make it easier to beat someone to a pulp because you don't like the way they were standing next to a ring shop, it just gives you something to invite other players around to view.
And you could have a rule where you can only defeat the WarbleKnob 10 times per month, after which you'd get nothing from it except practice at those key depressions. Once you've defeated him 10 times in a 30 day period, you're expected to move onto something else, like the Quest for the Lost Scarfanglewibble, which results in opening up more quests for other experiences and more options for enhancing your onscreen character.
But ultimately it's a game of skill, in the same way that Unreal Tournament should be just that, a game of skill. You login, you play, you logoff, and next time you login after a week away, no one has any advantage over you because they've been doing 40 hour redeye levelling sessions. (Although in the above game they may have nicer furniture).
Then there's the bugs, Mir is full of them, and each time a bug appears it takes around 3 months to fix it, but the fix usually generates more bugs at the same time.
In theory it's a great game, in practice, due to the mismanagement of its running, it's cack, full of script kiddies, hackers, conartists and cheats. Not a community as such, more a cesspit of humanity. (I've levelled characters to lvl 35 on both of their servers, never again...).
As Lawless Fever pointed out, one of the major drawbacks is the difference in levels between characters, as not everyone can play full-time. As with most MMORPGs, the kiddy bunking off school to create a character of the 99th level will always have an advantage over the casual gamer, not through skill, but just through literally hard work. This shouldn't be what games are about. Games should be about a level playing field.
Therefore I propose a change in MMORPGs. How about when you login, you're just your character, no levelling required. Same for everyone else. Same armor, same abilities, same equipment. So everyone is on an equal footing.
The 'skill' would then come into play in the way PvP battles or defeating monsters were organised. Instead of having to put in 10 hours a day to get to a level where you can carry the DeathSmite Sword and defeat the WarbleKnob with 10 blows without getting eaten, how about everyone has an equal chance of defeating the WarbleKnob by following a particular sequence of key depressions via visual or audible prompts during battles. (Yes, I know, touch typists would rule the universe, but we have to start somewhere).
Then there's the reward for defeating the WarbleKnob. It doesn't have to be the DeathSmite Mk.II with added Smiting, it could be a new addition to your base of operations, like plumbing, a jacuzzi, a new rug, a satellite dish etc., or maybe a new hairdo for your avatar, or perhaps even an item of jewellery that is just that, an item of jewellery to make you look slightly different. At least this way it doesn't empower you and make it easier to beat someone to a pulp because you don't like the way they were standing next to a ring shop, it just gives you something to invite other players around to view.
And you could have a rule where you can only defeat the WarbleKnob 10 times per month, after which you'd get nothing from it except practice at those key depressions. Once you've defeated him 10 times in a 30 day period, you're expected to move onto something else, like the Quest for the Lost Scarfanglewibble, which results in opening up more quests for other experiences and more options for enhancing your onscreen character.
But ultimately it's a game of skill, in the same way that Unreal Tournament should be just that, a game of skill. You login, you play, you logoff, and next time you login after a week away, no one has any advantage over you because they've been doing 40 hour redeye levelling sessions. (Although in the above game they may have nicer furniture).
What are MMORPGs?
I won't reply until I know.
:-D
I won't reply until I know.
:-D
I think as time goes on, the price you pay to play these games will get lower and maybe even be abolished. For now though, I am very selective about MMORPGs mainly because of the cost.
I haven't tried one of these games yet, but am currently looking at two, which I could invest in. The first is Neocron a game set in huge post apocalyptic world with huge cities populating it, and offers a freedom of choice not seen in any other game out there at the moment. The second is Star Wars Galaxies, which is very much like neocron, only it's set around the star wars universe, and should keep fans of the films, such as me, very happy.
If the price to play these games every month wasn't there, I'd more than likely get both, but as it is, I'm stuck into choosing which one will occupy my time, and money. That's the problem with games like these, some people are willing to pay the extra amount of money to play online, while others just don't think it's worth it.
I think developers need to sort out whether or not they keep the cost to play online and make a bit more money, or get rid of it all together and get more players involved in their game.
I haven't tried one of these games yet, but am currently looking at two, which I could invest in. The first is Neocron a game set in huge post apocalyptic world with huge cities populating it, and offers a freedom of choice not seen in any other game out there at the moment. The second is Star Wars Galaxies, which is very much like neocron, only it's set around the star wars universe, and should keep fans of the films, such as me, very happy.
If the price to play these games every month wasn't there, I'd more than likely get both, but as it is, I'm stuck into choosing which one will occupy my time, and money. That's the problem with games like these, some people are willing to pay the extra amount of money to play online, while others just don't think it's worth it.
I think developers need to sort out whether or not they keep the cost to play online and make a bit more money, or get rid of it all together and get more players involved in their game.
I will never see myself playing these kind of RPG's anyway for the fact i have to pay a monthly fee, and me having a busy next 2 years, i wouldn't have the time to get as much out of it as possible. I believe that Final fantasy has made a terrible decision to do this and i feel it will be a failure.
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