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This thread has been linked to the game 'Pro Evolution Soccer 4'.
I'm yet to immerse myself fully in PES4 yet as a combination of Halo 2, a crystal Xbox for less than three figures and online play have convinced me to hold out for the 'other' console version, but in these past few weeks I've been cramming in as much playtime as possible. I decided to go back from PES3 to PES2 today, just to see what it was like before pirouettes, before replays on demand and before you had more than 7 teams to choose from. The discoveries were startling.
The first thing I noticed was the graphics, of course. Every single player was the same six foot none wiry framed John Doe, differing only in hairstyle and skin colour. Thierry Henry and Robert Pires were discernable due only to their names and barnets, with even the most iconic of footballers David Seaman just another blank face with a ponytail-and-tache. This didn't really bother me, as without an instant replay option in the menu I didn't see anybody close-up very often. More jarring was the sight of a lean, mean Emile Heskey doing stepovers and speeding past the German defence like a knife through butter, only to smartly slide the ball past a slim, statuesque Kahn. The PES3 models were actually a massive step up, not only with the faces (Alan Smith, Ronaldinho, Vieri etc.) but the builds; Stam towering above Davids, Heskey and Rooney set far heavier than Casillas and Giggs. All merely cosmetic, but all very noticeable.
One bugbear I have with PES3 is the heading. Firstly, it's a bit too easy and secondly, in replays the ball often changes trajectory a full few inches away from the player's head. In PES2, collision detection as a whole seems far and away more realistic. Players no longer glide through goalkeeper's legs, but instead twist round them, and headers actually connect with the football. Heading itself was more difficult, with the game utilizing the off-the-ball movement to make it more than pure button-bashing. PES3 redeemed itself when the ball made it to the deck, as passing in PES2 was truly shocking. Large gaps of time between pressing the button and completing the pass got very frustrating very quickly, and although the game felt a lot weightier due to the slower passing, balls were cut out with ease by defenders if you dared to attempt a backheel or even a simple straight pass with the outside of the boot. Through balls were a no go area, except for on the wing - going through the middle, you will either meet the one defender amongst eight attackers or the goalkeeper a full fifty yards ahead of them all. Aerial through balls were even worse, always flying twice as far as intended with even the lightest taps. The only way to go was manual passing, flicking the right analogue stick in the desired direction with the desired force. This system will return in PES4, and that's definitely a good thing because the precision almost makes up for the abysmal through balls, allowing you to pass the ball into the spaces conventional passing can never seem to find.
And so on to the most important parts of football - shots and saves. The goalkeeping repertoire is clearly smaller, with animations quickly becoming repetetive; however, they seem a lot more realistic and the AI seems more impressive. Reactions are quicker, and low shots are often spectacularly diverted with an outstretched arm. Airborne strikers are dived at, often with just one hand, but whether they're saved or not the goalkeeper looks like he's making a concerted effort - more than can be said for some in PES3. So, what was the shooting like? In PES3 you didn't dare keep the button depressed for more than half a second for fear of hitting the ball out of the ground. In PES2 you can practically fill the bar, and still fill your boots with goals. Strikes from 35 yards out are actually achievable with ease, once you've worked an angle and given the ball to someone with a half decent shot. Finishing seems a lot tighter, although when it comes to close one-on-ones the more forgiving powerbar seems to be more of a hinderance than a help. Despite this, there's no awkward foot-shifting and the whole thing looks a lot cleaner.
Free-kicks are much harder, although shooting through the bottom of the wall can convert pretty much everything within a few metres of the penalty box. Throw-ons are restricted to the old semi-circles, another thing improved in the later versions...but the gameplay seems more real. PES4 is even more arcadey than PES3, but the pace of play in PES2 seems spot-on. Speeding it up seems unneccessary, and the movement of players and one-touch passing (another aspect improved in PES4, admittedly) are worlds ahead of the often one-dimensional opponents and teammates in PES3. There, a through ball virtually guarantees a goal, and a simple grasp of the R1 chip system means you can score almost every time. In PES2, goals from outside the area are more frequent but opportunities are harder to work, and more rewarding when carved out by slick passes.
The front end is frankly shocking, the amount of teams pathetic and the Master League system inadequate compared to the competition, but the actual gameplay is a lot closer to real football than PES3. Is Konami succeeding only in making PES a better video-game, as opposed to a more realistic simulation? The argument is strong. Only time will tell, as PES4's nuances gradually become our second nature...in a year, maybe I'll go back and test it against PES3. For now, I'll stick with Seaman and Adams in the 'London' side in a 2 tier Master League.
The first thing I noticed was the graphics, of course. Every single player was the same six foot none wiry framed John Doe, differing only in hairstyle and skin colour. Thierry Henry and Robert Pires were discernable due only to their names and barnets, with even the most iconic of footballers David Seaman just another blank face with a ponytail-and-tache. This didn't really bother me, as without an instant replay option in the menu I didn't see anybody close-up very often. More jarring was the sight of a lean, mean Emile Heskey doing stepovers and speeding past the German defence like a knife through butter, only to smartly slide the ball past a slim, statuesque Kahn. The PES3 models were actually a massive step up, not only with the faces (Alan Smith, Ronaldinho, Vieri etc.) but the builds; Stam towering above Davids, Heskey and Rooney set far heavier than Casillas and Giggs. All merely cosmetic, but all very noticeable.
One bugbear I have with PES3 is the heading. Firstly, it's a bit too easy and secondly, in replays the ball often changes trajectory a full few inches away from the player's head. In PES2, collision detection as a whole seems far and away more realistic. Players no longer glide through goalkeeper's legs, but instead twist round them, and headers actually connect with the football. Heading itself was more difficult, with the game utilizing the off-the-ball movement to make it more than pure button-bashing. PES3 redeemed itself when the ball made it to the deck, as passing in PES2 was truly shocking. Large gaps of time between pressing the button and completing the pass got very frustrating very quickly, and although the game felt a lot weightier due to the slower passing, balls were cut out with ease by defenders if you dared to attempt a backheel or even a simple straight pass with the outside of the boot. Through balls were a no go area, except for on the wing - going through the middle, you will either meet the one defender amongst eight attackers or the goalkeeper a full fifty yards ahead of them all. Aerial through balls were even worse, always flying twice as far as intended with even the lightest taps. The only way to go was manual passing, flicking the right analogue stick in the desired direction with the desired force. This system will return in PES4, and that's definitely a good thing because the precision almost makes up for the abysmal through balls, allowing you to pass the ball into the spaces conventional passing can never seem to find.
And so on to the most important parts of football - shots and saves. The goalkeeping repertoire is clearly smaller, with animations quickly becoming repetetive; however, they seem a lot more realistic and the AI seems more impressive. Reactions are quicker, and low shots are often spectacularly diverted with an outstretched arm. Airborne strikers are dived at, often with just one hand, but whether they're saved or not the goalkeeper looks like he's making a concerted effort - more than can be said for some in PES3. So, what was the shooting like? In PES3 you didn't dare keep the button depressed for more than half a second for fear of hitting the ball out of the ground. In PES2 you can practically fill the bar, and still fill your boots with goals. Strikes from 35 yards out are actually achievable with ease, once you've worked an angle and given the ball to someone with a half decent shot. Finishing seems a lot tighter, although when it comes to close one-on-ones the more forgiving powerbar seems to be more of a hinderance than a help. Despite this, there's no awkward foot-shifting and the whole thing looks a lot cleaner.
Free-kicks are much harder, although shooting through the bottom of the wall can convert pretty much everything within a few metres of the penalty box. Throw-ons are restricted to the old semi-circles, another thing improved in the later versions...but the gameplay seems more real. PES4 is even more arcadey than PES3, but the pace of play in PES2 seems spot-on. Speeding it up seems unneccessary, and the movement of players and one-touch passing (another aspect improved in PES4, admittedly) are worlds ahead of the often one-dimensional opponents and teammates in PES3. There, a through ball virtually guarantees a goal, and a simple grasp of the R1 chip system means you can score almost every time. In PES2, goals from outside the area are more frequent but opportunities are harder to work, and more rewarding when carved out by slick passes.
The front end is frankly shocking, the amount of teams pathetic and the Master League system inadequate compared to the competition, but the actual gameplay is a lot closer to real football than PES3. Is Konami succeeding only in making PES a better video-game, as opposed to a more realistic simulation? The argument is strong. Only time will tell, as PES4's nuances gradually become our second nature...in a year, maybe I'll go back and test it against PES3. For now, I'll stick with Seaman and Adams in the 'London' side in a 2 tier Master League.
swander wrote:
> Yeah, the PES3 scoring bar was notoriously tetchy, but I'm with Pro
> Evo on the passing, in PES2 trying to execute a simple through ball
> was like trying to get Wayne Rooney to solve multiple equations.
I disagree - in PES2, nearly all of my goals came from through balls. I found it very easy just to play on one of my strikers through the defense and then it's just a one on one with the keeper. In PES3, I couldn't do this nearly so easily any more, so I began to use crossing and heading/volleying as a main method of scoring, as it's a lot easier.
> Yeah, the PES3 scoring bar was notoriously tetchy, but I'm with Pro
> Evo on the passing, in PES2 trying to execute a simple through ball
> was like trying to get Wayne Rooney to solve multiple equations.
I disagree - in PES2, nearly all of my goals came from through balls. I found it very easy just to play on one of my strikers through the defense and then it's just a one on one with the keeper. In PES3, I couldn't do this nearly so easily any more, so I began to use crossing and heading/volleying as a main method of scoring, as it's a lot easier.
I can't wait til this comes out for PC.
I think with PES4 they've really sorted out most of the problems that could have been associated with passing. If you press X, the ball will be passed straight away. It's that simple. It doesn't include any of the "let's wait three seconds and see if they get tackled" style of passing Konami (deliberately?) implemented, which frustrated me many a time playing previous PES games. There's better link-up, one-twos are excellent to implement, and the whole area of passing has just generally been improved.
Headering in PES4 has improved as well, although it does take some getting used to as it's rather more a case of innovation in the system than going back to old methods. As the original post stated, in PES3 it really was just far too easy; far easier in fact, than the previous two PES games. Now, for PES4, they've brought in new levels of difficulty in the headering, which encourage manual player positioning rather than just mashing X and Square and hoping for the best. This system wasn't used in PES1 or 2, but has been newly included for PES4 and is much more realistic and challenging than PES3 headering. It's completely new, but it does have a slight basis on the earlier two PES games rather than on PES3.
Headering in PES4 has improved as well, although it does take some getting used to as it's rather more a case of innovation in the system than going back to old methods. As the original post stated, in PES3 it really was just far too easy; far easier in fact, than the previous two PES games. Now, for PES4, they've brought in new levels of difficulty in the headering, which encourage manual player positioning rather than just mashing X and Square and hoping for the best. This system wasn't used in PES1 or 2, but has been newly included for PES4 and is much more realistic and challenging than PES3 headering. It's completely new, but it does have a slight basis on the earlier two PES games rather than on PES3.
Blank wrote:
> I found the opposite - in Pro Evo 2 I could score easily by
> passing and throughballing to the last man, whereas in PES3 the
> throughballs get cut out a lot more often, and you have to strike the
> ball ridiculously softly to get anywhere near the net.
Yeah, the PES3 scoring bar was notoriously tetchy, but I'm with Pro Evo on the passing, in PES2 trying to execute a simple through ball was like trying to get Wayne Rooney to solve multiple equations. PES3 won't let you slice the defence in two from your own penalty box but when the opportunity arises you can get a one-on-one consistently.
> I found the opposite - in Pro Evo 2 I could score easily by
> passing and throughballing to the last man, whereas in PES3 the
> throughballs get cut out a lot more often, and you have to strike the
> ball ridiculously softly to get anywhere near the net.
Yeah, the PES3 scoring bar was notoriously tetchy, but I'm with Pro Evo on the passing, in PES2 trying to execute a simple through ball was like trying to get Wayne Rooney to solve multiple equations. PES3 won't let you slice the defence in two from your own penalty box but when the opportunity arises you can get a one-on-one consistently.
Pro Evo wrote:
> However with the passing side to the game, each of the installments i
> feel have been different. I found when going from PES2 to PES3, that
> the third one was a lot more linear. You didnt really ever need to
> cross the ball, and i could easily score just through playing through
> the middle of the park with a through ball at the end. I found my
> passing game was a lot better in PES2 than 3.
Really? I found the opposite - in Pro Evo 2 I could score easily by passing and throughballing to the last man, whereas in PES3 the throughballs get cut out a lot more often, and you have to strike the ball ridiculously softly to get anywhere near the net. I mainly use crosses in PES3, because the chances of scoring are much greater. From what little I've played of Pro Evo 4 (the demo - don't have the full game yet) this seems a lot harder to do.
> However with the passing side to the game, each of the installments i
> feel have been different. I found when going from PES2 to PES3, that
> the third one was a lot more linear. You didnt really ever need to
> cross the ball, and i could easily score just through playing through
> the middle of the park with a through ball at the end. I found my
> passing game was a lot better in PES2 than 3.
Really? I found the opposite - in Pro Evo 2 I could score easily by passing and throughballing to the last man, whereas in PES3 the throughballs get cut out a lot more often, and you have to strike the ball ridiculously softly to get anywhere near the net. I mainly use crosses in PES3, because the chances of scoring are much greater. From what little I've played of Pro Evo 4 (the demo - don't have the full game yet) this seems a lot harder to do.
I think it comes down to personaly preference how realistic the PES games are to the player, such as how you like the game to be played. Believe it or not, there are people out there who actually like long ball football, which is something you have been able to play to a certain degree in all the games.
However with the passing side to the game, each of the installments i feel have been different. I found when going from PES2 to PES3, that the third one was a lot more linear. You didnt really ever need to cross the ball, and i could easily score just through playing through the middle of the park with a through ball at the end. I found my passing game was a lot better in PES2 than 3.
Whereas now, in PES4, im being able to combine the 2 much better, and if i cant find a way through with the through ball, ill opt for a cross, which i rarely did before. I like the shooting better too, the ball physiques means there are many more different ways to score, depending on angle and power ect.
So in the end, for me, the game isnt going backwards, and is very much continuing to evolve.
However with the passing side to the game, each of the installments i feel have been different. I found when going from PES2 to PES3, that the third one was a lot more linear. You didnt really ever need to cross the ball, and i could easily score just through playing through the middle of the park with a through ball at the end. I found my passing game was a lot better in PES2 than 3.
Whereas now, in PES4, im being able to combine the 2 much better, and if i cant find a way through with the through ball, ill opt for a cross, which i rarely did before. I like the shooting better too, the ball physiques means there are many more different ways to score, depending on angle and power ect.
So in the end, for me, the game isnt going backwards, and is very much continuing to evolve.
I'm yet to immerse myself fully in PES4 yet as a combination of Halo 2, a crystal Xbox for less than three figures and online play have convinced me to hold out for the 'other' console version, but in these past few weeks I've been cramming in as much playtime as possible. I decided to go back from PES3 to PES2 today, just to see what it was like before pirouettes, before replays on demand and before you had more than 7 teams to choose from. The discoveries were startling.
The first thing I noticed was the graphics, of course. Every single player was the same six foot none wiry framed John Doe, differing only in hairstyle and skin colour. Thierry Henry and Robert Pires were discernable due only to their names and barnets, with even the most iconic of footballers David Seaman just another blank face with a ponytail-and-tache. This didn't really bother me, as without an instant replay option in the menu I didn't see anybody close-up very often. More jarring was the sight of a lean, mean Emile Heskey doing stepovers and speeding past the German defence like a knife through butter, only to smartly slide the ball past a slim, statuesque Kahn. The PES3 models were actually a massive step up, not only with the faces (Alan Smith, Ronaldinho, Vieri etc.) but the builds; Stam towering above Davids, Heskey and Rooney set far heavier than Casillas and Giggs. All merely cosmetic, but all very noticeable.
One bugbear I have with PES3 is the heading. Firstly, it's a bit too easy and secondly, in replays the ball often changes trajectory a full few inches away from the player's head. In PES2, collision detection as a whole seems far and away more realistic. Players no longer glide through goalkeeper's legs, but instead twist round them, and headers actually connect with the football. Heading itself was more difficult, with the game utilizing the off-the-ball movement to make it more than pure button-bashing. PES3 redeemed itself when the ball made it to the deck, as passing in PES2 was truly shocking. Large gaps of time between pressing the button and completing the pass got very frustrating very quickly, and although the game felt a lot weightier due to the slower passing, balls were cut out with ease by defenders if you dared to attempt a backheel or even a simple straight pass with the outside of the boot. Through balls were a no go area, except for on the wing - going through the middle, you will either meet the one defender amongst eight attackers or the goalkeeper a full fifty yards ahead of them all. Aerial through balls were even worse, always flying twice as far as intended with even the lightest taps. The only way to go was manual passing, flicking the right analogue stick in the desired direction with the desired force. This system will return in PES4, and that's definitely a good thing because the precision almost makes up for the abysmal through balls, allowing you to pass the ball into the spaces conventional passing can never seem to find.
And so on to the most important parts of football - shots and saves. The goalkeeping repertoire is clearly smaller, with animations quickly becoming repetetive; however, they seem a lot more realistic and the AI seems more impressive. Reactions are quicker, and low shots are often spectacularly diverted with an outstretched arm. Airborne strikers are dived at, often with just one hand, but whether they're saved or not the goalkeeper looks like he's making a concerted effort - more than can be said for some in PES3. So, what was the shooting like? In PES3 you didn't dare keep the button depressed for more than half a second for fear of hitting the ball out of the ground. In PES2 you can practically fill the bar, and still fill your boots with goals. Strikes from 35 yards out are actually achievable with ease, once you've worked an angle and given the ball to someone with a half decent shot. Finishing seems a lot tighter, although when it comes to close one-on-ones the more forgiving powerbar seems to be more of a hinderance than a help. Despite this, there's no awkward foot-shifting and the whole thing looks a lot cleaner.
Free-kicks are much harder, although shooting through the bottom of the wall can convert pretty much everything within a few metres of the penalty box. Throw-ons are restricted to the old semi-circles, another thing improved in the later versions...but the gameplay seems more real. PES4 is even more arcadey than PES3, but the pace of play in PES2 seems spot-on. Speeding it up seems unneccessary, and the movement of players and one-touch passing (another aspect improved in PES4, admittedly) are worlds ahead of the often one-dimensional opponents and teammates in PES3. There, a through ball virtually guarantees a goal, and a simple grasp of the R1 chip system means you can score almost every time. In PES2, goals from outside the area are more frequent but opportunities are harder to work, and more rewarding when carved out by slick passes.
The front end is frankly shocking, the amount of teams pathetic and the Master League system inadequate compared to the competition, but the actual gameplay is a lot closer to real football than PES3. Is Konami succeeding only in making PES a better video-game, as opposed to a more realistic simulation? The argument is strong. Only time will tell, as PES4's nuances gradually become our second nature...in a year, maybe I'll go back and test it against PES3. For now, I'll stick with Seaman and Adams in the 'London' side in a 2 tier Master League.
The first thing I noticed was the graphics, of course. Every single player was the same six foot none wiry framed John Doe, differing only in hairstyle and skin colour. Thierry Henry and Robert Pires were discernable due only to their names and barnets, with even the most iconic of footballers David Seaman just another blank face with a ponytail-and-tache. This didn't really bother me, as without an instant replay option in the menu I didn't see anybody close-up very often. More jarring was the sight of a lean, mean Emile Heskey doing stepovers and speeding past the German defence like a knife through butter, only to smartly slide the ball past a slim, statuesque Kahn. The PES3 models were actually a massive step up, not only with the faces (Alan Smith, Ronaldinho, Vieri etc.) but the builds; Stam towering above Davids, Heskey and Rooney set far heavier than Casillas and Giggs. All merely cosmetic, but all very noticeable.
One bugbear I have with PES3 is the heading. Firstly, it's a bit too easy and secondly, in replays the ball often changes trajectory a full few inches away from the player's head. In PES2, collision detection as a whole seems far and away more realistic. Players no longer glide through goalkeeper's legs, but instead twist round them, and headers actually connect with the football. Heading itself was more difficult, with the game utilizing the off-the-ball movement to make it more than pure button-bashing. PES3 redeemed itself when the ball made it to the deck, as passing in PES2 was truly shocking. Large gaps of time between pressing the button and completing the pass got very frustrating very quickly, and although the game felt a lot weightier due to the slower passing, balls were cut out with ease by defenders if you dared to attempt a backheel or even a simple straight pass with the outside of the boot. Through balls were a no go area, except for on the wing - going through the middle, you will either meet the one defender amongst eight attackers or the goalkeeper a full fifty yards ahead of them all. Aerial through balls were even worse, always flying twice as far as intended with even the lightest taps. The only way to go was manual passing, flicking the right analogue stick in the desired direction with the desired force. This system will return in PES4, and that's definitely a good thing because the precision almost makes up for the abysmal through balls, allowing you to pass the ball into the spaces conventional passing can never seem to find.
And so on to the most important parts of football - shots and saves. The goalkeeping repertoire is clearly smaller, with animations quickly becoming repetetive; however, they seem a lot more realistic and the AI seems more impressive. Reactions are quicker, and low shots are often spectacularly diverted with an outstretched arm. Airborne strikers are dived at, often with just one hand, but whether they're saved or not the goalkeeper looks like he's making a concerted effort - more than can be said for some in PES3. So, what was the shooting like? In PES3 you didn't dare keep the button depressed for more than half a second for fear of hitting the ball out of the ground. In PES2 you can practically fill the bar, and still fill your boots with goals. Strikes from 35 yards out are actually achievable with ease, once you've worked an angle and given the ball to someone with a half decent shot. Finishing seems a lot tighter, although when it comes to close one-on-ones the more forgiving powerbar seems to be more of a hinderance than a help. Despite this, there's no awkward foot-shifting and the whole thing looks a lot cleaner.
Free-kicks are much harder, although shooting through the bottom of the wall can convert pretty much everything within a few metres of the penalty box. Throw-ons are restricted to the old semi-circles, another thing improved in the later versions...but the gameplay seems more real. PES4 is even more arcadey than PES3, but the pace of play in PES2 seems spot-on. Speeding it up seems unneccessary, and the movement of players and one-touch passing (another aspect improved in PES4, admittedly) are worlds ahead of the often one-dimensional opponents and teammates in PES3. There, a through ball virtually guarantees a goal, and a simple grasp of the R1 chip system means you can score almost every time. In PES2, goals from outside the area are more frequent but opportunities are harder to work, and more rewarding when carved out by slick passes.
The front end is frankly shocking, the amount of teams pathetic and the Master League system inadequate compared to the competition, but the actual gameplay is a lot closer to real football than PES3. Is Konami succeeding only in making PES a better video-game, as opposed to a more realistic simulation? The argument is strong. Only time will tell, as PES4's nuances gradually become our second nature...in a year, maybe I'll go back and test it against PES3. For now, I'll stick with Seaman and Adams in the 'London' side in a 2 tier Master League.