pb wrote:
> I think many drivers do get a superiority complex.  Kimi only
> escapes some of the attention because he never talks, to anyone!

He does disappoint me when he opens his mouth, but then I support him because of his on track exploits, such as 10 fastest laps in the last fifteen races which may not mean a lot this year but at least it shows he had the speed to do better (like in 2005).

> Massa seems more down to earth, but as you say he's been making
> mistakes he shouldn't be making at this stage in his career.

Well this is the first year he's had a real championship run.  He was out of the running after Fuji last year, so it'll be interesting to see how he deals with the added pressure of being the teams only chance, with Kimi likely to be out of contention at the same point this year (if he isn't already so).

> Alonso was somewhat grumpy and started to get that same complex
> when he was champion and I'm sure many others have in the past.

He does seem to be the fans' least favourite, with Montoya (when he was still in F1), then Kimi being next.  I think his English lets him down a bit, having in the past described every pole or win as a dream, which wasn't very inspirational.

> Maybe it's the sport which pushes the drivers into this mindset,
> or the people around them?

In L4yer Cake there's a bit about forgetting what $hit smells like, which is what I think happens if you don't have the right people round you, as Sir Jackie Stewart is probably the most modest multi world champion ever (although according to sky news he only won two :p).

I think many drivers do get a superiority complex.  Kimi only escapes some of the attention because he never talks, to anyone!  When he does express an opinion it's always the Ferrari line and a sense of 'we're right, we're Ferrari, so what!'.  Schummy was worse.

Massa seems more down to earth, but as you say he's been making mistakes he shouldn't be making at this stage in his career.  Alonso was somewhat grumpy and started to get that same complex when he was champion and I'm sure many others have in the past.

Maybe it's the sport which pushes the drivers into this mindset, or the people around them?

pb wrote:
> Anyone deserves to win the championship if they drive well and
> get points, to be honest.

Felipe at Silverstone was just shocking.  Also go back to earlier races in the season when he was making rookie errors (much like Piquet Jr. has been doing all year).  The only reason I’d like him to take the wdc over Hamilton is because I think Lewis’ head would explode.  Did you hear him after the night race, talking about being stuck behind Coulthard, a fellow brit as if he was supposed to let him through.  Still though if he does take it, I won’t begrudge him, as he has the best work ethic out there by far.

Anyone deserves to win the championship if they drive well and get points, to be honest.

Alonso impressed me yesterday.  Yes, there was some luck in Renault's timing there but he drove a good race in a car that has so far underachieved.

Grandprix wrote:
> I think Hamilton has to win the title now otherwise there will be
> a cloud over Massa if he wins by less than 6 points.

Even though he has been the best (in terms of improvement) this season?  I don't think he deserves a WDC, but that's from a talent point of view, and not an attempt to make excuses just in case Lewis doesn't do it again which does seem to be a very British trait.

I think Hamilton has to win the title now otherwise there will be a cloud over Massa if he wins by less than 6 points.

The way I see it, it's better for Hamilton that they didn't give him the points back. 

Why?  Well, with the FIA ruling it will look so much better at the end of the season if he wins 'against the odds' and also if he loses there will be further pressure on the FIA to change.

If Hamilton was given the points back and then won the championship then his detractors would have plenty of ammunition to say he won it unfairly.

Grandprix wrote:
> So, the appeal was thrown out. The FIA's integrity is looking
> shakier by the moment.

The FIA and integrity have never gone well together.

So, the appeal was thrown out. The FIA's integrity is looking shakier by the moment.

Click Here

Grandprix wrote:
> Can't really say Vettel was a fluke winner because he dominated.
> You could say Hamilton had a chance to win but the tyre choice at
> their only pit stop cost them so they had to pit again.

Lewis overworked the tyres so had to come in again, although it would have been too early to switch to wets (intermediates) when he came in for fuel.

> Singapore in a couple of weeks and early weather predictions
> have it down as 60% chance of rain. A wet night race will really
> make them earn their kudos. :)

I think this is the most worrying addition to this years calendar.  There was a lot of data available with Valencia (due to support races etc), when with Singapore you have the different surfaces, which would be a problem before you factor in poor weather at night time.

Also GP you don't have to talk to yourself, a conversation about F1 has actually broken out in general chat.

That was a bit of a crazy weekend. I think every driver out there deserves credit because those conditions weren't easy and the lack of contact and retirements just shows how well they all did.

Can't really say Vettel was a fluke winner because he dominated. You could say Hamilton had a chance to win but the tyre choice at their only pit stop cost them so they had to pit again.

Singapore in a couple of weeks and early weather predictions have it down as 60% chance of rain. A wet night race will really make them earn their kudos. :)

Grandprix wrote:
> Suppose Raikkonen had finished 2nd. If the stewards believed
> that Hamilton had gained an advantage then a penalty putting
> Hamilton behind Raikkonen would have made more sense. The fact
> that Raikkonen went out just means that any penalty handed down
> is going to look extremely harsh.

True, although can you imagine the outcry if Hamilton would have been demoted behind both Ferrari's.  For Massa to come away with the win sends out the wrong message though.  He didn't try to catch Lewis when the rain came and that's not what I watch F1 for.  It'll be a shame if he takes the WDC (even with much improved performances on his least favourate tracks this year).

McLaren are much better in cooler conditions. Ferrari and McLaren were on the harder tyre at this point, so it's harder to heat the tyres up. Ferrari are much kinder on their tyres but that would probably mean they have trouble getting heat in the harder tyre, particularly in cooler temperatures.

Suppose Raikkonen had finished 2nd. If the stewards believed that Hamilton had gained an advantage then a penalty putting Hamilton behind Raikkonen would have made more sense. The fact that Raikkonen went out just means that any penalty handed down is going to look extremely harsh.

It's a shame the PPV F1 coverage fell flat on its face a few years ago. It was probably a little too early for it and too expensive but we at least would have had a choice of cameras etc.

Grandprix wrote:
> No, I'm not insinuating that Raikkonen did a brake test on
> Hamilton. Hamilton's car was working much better and Raikkonen
> obviously wasn't confident in braking at the normal point. The
> whole braking early just seems to be a confidence thing because
> Raikkonen does not enjoy the tricky conditions and I don't think
> the Ferrari car does either.

I think he does with the right stuff underneath him.  Remember Fuji last year?  On the Monaco grid the team fitted his tyres late so the resulting drive through left him out of position, with Silverstone he still had his worn inters on, whilst at spa it was obvious that Hamilton had a car that was a lot easier to handle on dry tyres in those conditions (could this possibly stem back to the mythical Ferrari heat issue).

> I just don't think any racing driver, Massa included, would have
> done any different. Raikkonen was struggling and any driver worth
> his money would have gone round the outside, thought Raikkonen
> would have at least given him enough room as he was comfortably
> alongside, taken action to avoid a collision and then let
> Raikkonen back into the lead. I also don't expect any driver to
> sit there and wait behind Raikkonen round La Source when he
> brakes early.

I have to admit Räikkönen was a bit more cut throat than usual (for example his move on Massa at the start).  Normally Kimi does move across but leaves enough room, unlike say Alonso or Webber.  I also don't believe after moving wide that he expected Lewis to still be at the apex of the hairpin, as he usually isn't one for contact.

> The thing about the penalty is that the time cost does not fit
> the crime, if there even is one.

What would ten seconds have achieved?  Similarly how would a five or ten place grid drop at the next round gone down?  I honestly find all pre/post race interference fairly draconian, but then if all decisions where taken instantly, we may see more unjust drive through penalties etc.


> The onboard footage is great. It just shows how bad the coverage
> is in the UK. We get nothing really and we also have to put up
> with James Allen. It was Rosberg recovering.

James really is unpopular, although I can see why, when he shouted that Lewis had spun when it was a red car swapping ends.  Here's hoping the BBC improves coverage next year, although after this years Olympics, I'm not so sure.

No, I'm not insinuating that Raikkonen did a brake test on Hamilton. Hamilton's car was working much better and Raikkonen obviously wasn't confident in braking at the normal point. The whole braking early just seems to be a confidence thing because Raikkonen does not enjoy the tricky conditions and I don't think the Ferrari car does either.

I just don't think any racing driver, Massa included, would have done any different. Raikkonen was struggling and any driver worth his money would have gone round the outside, thought Raikkonen would have at least given him enough room as he was comfortably alongside, taken action to avoid a collision and then let Raikkonen back into the lead. I also don't expect any driver to sit there and wait behind Raikkonen round La Source when he brakes early.

The thing about the penalty is that the time cost does not fit the crime, if there even is one.

The onboard footage is great. It just shows how bad the coverage is in the UK. We get nothing really and we also have to put up with James Allen. It was Rosberg recovering.

Grandprix wrote:
> I've seen the onboard footage. Hamilton was reeling Raikkonen in
> heading into the Bus Stop. Raikkonen broke really early and
> Hamilton did well to avoid hitting him so went round the outside.

I hope you’re not insinuating that Kimi brake tested him, as Hamilton’s reactions where per any F1 driver (possibly with the exception of David Coulthard).  Did you also see from the onboard my point, about Lewis reeling him in by using the curbs, when Räikkönen was by this point staying off them.

> I can't see how anyone expects Hamilton, who was in front of
> Raikkonen for a brief period, to lift off and let Raikkonen take
> the line, which was tighter than you would normally take.

That's the argument, which leads onto Hamiltons attitude etc.  Felipe Massa said he wouldn't have taken Kimi otherwise on such a short straight, which I believe Lewis well knew.  Had he have waited for a clearer opportunity then there wouldn't have been any issue at all.

> Hamilton has two choices, stick to his line and take Raikkonen
> out or avoid a collision. He avoided a collision. Raikkonen went
> past Hamilton down the straight, swept across Hamilton and then
> broke early again. Hamilton was later on the brakes and easily
> took the place. Hamilton never moved behind Raikkonen. Raikkonen
> moved in front of him.

That's a whole different debate, why he's so good on the brakes, in relation to the Ferrari documents they had last year and why McLaren had to assure the FIA they wouldn't developed that area this season.
EDIT I forgot to mention that the version I gave was Hamilton’s (given during the press conference).

> The last time I checked, this was motor RACING. These are racing
> drivers having to make split second decisions. The argument that
> the stewards used was that Hamilton gained a advantage. Yeah, he
> gained an advantage in that both cars were still intact. The
> penalty is ridiculous. 25 seconds (effectively a drive through)
> is beyond crazy.

Agreed, although you could argue that a drive through would have been imposed had it not been towards the end of the race.

> Again, this is only my theory from the onboard footage I've
> seen. Make your own judgements.

I hadn't seen the Räikkönen onboard, which confirms what I suspected, that the Williams impeded him before his crash.  Wasn't that Rosburg, who had already nearly taken the leaders out by recovering from a spin right in front of them.

Ps: I like the growl from the Ferrari when Kimi nearly hits the side of the recovering Rosburg (it kind of makes you wish that the entire race was made up of onboard footage).

I've seen the onboard footage. Hamilton was reeling Raikkonen in heading into the Bus Stop. Raikkonen broke really early and Hamilton did well to avoid hitting him so went round the outside. I can't see how anyone expects Hamilton, who was in front of Raikkonen for a brief period, to lift off and let Raikkonen take the line, which was tighter than you would normally take.

Hamilton has two choices, stick to his line and take Raikkonen out or avoid a collision. He avoided a collision. Raikkonen went past Hamilton down the straight, swept across Hamilton and then broke early again. Hamilton was later on the brakes and easily took the place. Hamilton never moved behind Raikkonen. Raikkonen moved in front of him.

The last time I checked, this was motor RACING. These are racing drivers having to make split second decisions. The argument that the stewards used was that Hamilton gained a advantage. Yeah, he gained an advantage in that both cars were still intact. The penalty is ridiculous. 25 seconds (effectively a drive through) is beyond crazy.

Again, this is only my theory from the onboard footage I've seen. Make your own judgements.

Onboard footage

Oh yeah, as for the stewards thing, I believe there is supposed to be 1 the same or they were thinking of 1 the same. From what I've read, there are 3 different stewards for the Italian Grand Prix and the previous 3 stewards have been uncontactable since the Belgian Grand Prix.

El Viking wrote:
> The telemetry shows a drop in speed, what has to be acknowledged
> is that the McLaren was doing better in the conditions, seeing
> how Hamilton chased down Kimi. I don't think there should be one,
> but it's not as if I can hold out much hope with the FIA...

Haven’t the stewards been the same all year (as I thought this was brought in a little while back to improve consistency with these types of decisions).  This is my grievance, that discretion was shown with Massa in Valencia, yet the rules seemed to have been applied firmly in Hamilton’s case.

Grandprix, the following isn’t a personal attack, just questioning towards the general consensus over the Raiko-Hami incident (and just for the record I am not an Alonso or Ferrari fan):

Hamilton was faster into the bus stop chicane because Kimi at this point was keeping off the curbs, when Lewis wasn’t.  Räikkönen moved to take the racing line, which at this point was tighter than usual, because he had Hamilton outside him.  If you watch Hekki’s attempted move on Glock, then the contact with Webber, you will see the difference this makes.  Lewis could have relented, but decided to cut the track.

Now Lewis claims that he lifted.  If you listen to the McLaren statement afterwards, all they mentioned was that Kimi was 6kmp/h (4mph) faster as they crossed the start line.  Well of course he would be, by sticking to the circuit he had a longer run to the line, whilst Lewis by not slowing down to the extent of Räikkönen had gained an advantage.

Into La Source Räikkönen with Lewis having gone behind then around (which’s where Hamiltons preposed lift most likely happened), Kimi tried to defend then swepted out wide, which is why I find it hard to understand Niki Lauda’s reasoning that he was outbreaked as taking a wider line into a hairpin is a well rehearsed way to come back an at opponent.  That’s what indeed happened, resulting in a touch between the two.

Letting a car back through is an etiquette thing, rather than a written rule.  Not doing so assures a penalty (as Lewis already knew from his incident with Vettel in france).  Inevitably Lewis has himself to blame, as after Fuji last year his comments on the Chinese grand prix weekend, when the new video of the crash involving Vettel and Webber emerged did not help his relationship with race officials.  Saying you’re probably going to receive a penalty, adding a hint of emotional blackmail by stating that you don’t want to continue in F1 if this is so, probably isn’t a very good idea.

If there is a penalty, it should be taken down to 10 seconds, owing to the fact the leaders were so far in front at the time. The telemetry shows a drop in speed, what has to be acknowledged is that the McLaren was doing better in the conditions, seeing how Hamilton chased down Kimi. I don't think there should be one, but it's not as if I can hold out much hope with the FIA...

But a great race nonetheless, I was impressed by Heidfeld's manoevering at the end. He had nothing to lose, and ended up a deserving third (And after some nonsense, second.)

Okay, first up, good race. McLaren were hoping Hamilton would run and hide but Hamilton just got caught out by the conditions early. Raikkonen certainly had the edge on the softer tyre and was brilliant in the middle sector.

The hard tyre favoured McLaren and Hamilton made that 6 second gap back. The rain came again and everything went crazy. Heidfeld and his team made the right call to switch to the inters, Alonso and Renault made the decision a lap too late and that probably cost them what was then 3rd place.

Kovalainen's drive through was deserved. It wasn't even an attempt at a move. At least Webber got a point but it was at Glock's expense for overtaking in a yellow flag zone.

The Hamilton penalty is the bone of contention. I feel it's getting to the territory of stopping drivers making moves. From the many angles I've seen, Hamilton was better on the brakes, as his overtaking move on Raikkonen at La Source showed. It's a legitimate attempt to pass around the outside, if a little optimistic. Raikkonen did seem to move across to the inside and block Hamilton out.

There is nothing wrong with squeezing drivers but eventually you have to give them room. Hamilton looked to be at least side by side and Hamilton avoided a certain collision if he tried to take the corner because Raikkonen wouldn't have moved to give him room from that position.

I suppose the debate is all about gaining an advantage and how far do you have to drop back. The telemetry could be very important in this case. There have been cases of drive throughs for cutting chicanes but all the cases I can recall have been huge advantages. I've seen drivers let a car back through and avoid the penalty. I've seen drivers cut chicanes, get an advantage and not get penalties.

McLaren have appealed so it goes to the courts. I've read a lot of responses to the penalty and 90% at least have been totally baffled by the penalty. Some think the penalty is unjust, some believe that the penalty should be for the next race or something around 10 seconds instead of 25. Only those in support of the penalty have been Spaniards who hate Hamilton and staunch Ferrari supporters, although I've seen a lot of Ferrari fans appalled by the decision of the stewards.

And if the weather has anything to do with it, potentially manic.

Also, I quite like the look of the plans for Donington Park prior to it becoming the new venue for the British Grand Prix. I've only seen a couple of Renault World Series meetings there, but the infield extension looks promising from the spectator's viewpoint at least; from behind where the current pits are, you'll get an even better view. All they need to do now is sort out the utterly shambolic traffic arrangements...

Belgium, my favourite race of the year. I hope it's a good one.

What a dull race.

Everything went pretty normally in terms of teams at the front in the end although Raikkonen had a bit of a nightmare.

Releasing the car unsafely in the pitlane has usually resulted in a fine so I'm not surprised to see Ferrari get a fine. The one thing I am annoyed at is the audacity of Massa to say that it was Sutil's fault. The last time I checked, Sutil had right of way, seeing as he going down the pitlane normally.

I think there is a fair amount of playing around going on seeing as it is a new track. Tomorrow we will see what is what.

Kimi quickest at end of practice 2. Lewis 5th, but only 2/10s down. Could have been playing around with fuel loads?

Alonso in 2nd, but on the soft tyres - possibily just a bit of a publicity run as it's his home race?

The fast learners will get an initial advantage but I think most will be on their pace by Saturday morning. McLaren seem to have a slight edge but that could all change.

The only street circuit we have to look at is Monaco. McLaren were good there but Valencia is something a bit different.

So, Valencia this weekend.

Predictions? Hard not to think of McLaren starting the weekend as favourites. It'll be interesting to see if Ferrari have caught up at all over the break.

I wonder if the proper Kimi will turn up this weekend?

unfortunatley the BBC only went for this once Lewis showed up so i think it is in danger of becoming the Lewis Hamilton show, hopefully i will be wrong but ITV really raised the bar from when the beeb had it before but i do agree that it is becoming annoying, to much speculation, why not spend more time talking to all the drivers and teams

The Spanish never really cared about Formula 1 until Alonso started winning though.

I don't think Hill wants to. Brundle just wasn't around for the Hungarian race.

Spanish TV seems to do the same with Alonso though.

Still, not long now and we'll have to get used to BBC coverage again.  I was wondering if Mr Hill was thinking of having a go at commentary full time for the BBC and was using ITV as a try-out?  :)

ITV's coverage is really beginning to grate. I don't mind a bit of chat about Hamilton as it's only natural for a British channel to focus on a British driver but everything is Lewis, Lewis, Lewis.

Even in the pitlane, it's no different. They were speaking to someone down the pitlane, can't remember who it was, but they were discussing something. Then they mentioned Lewis. What does that person in a minor team have anything to do with Lewis? It's obsessive.

Not a great race for overtaking but that's Hungary. Massa drove brilliantly and will be gutted not to win that one. Kovalainen drove steady and Glock did a great job. That Toyota definitely had the edge in the last sector because they put in fastest third sectors for most of the race.

Raikkonen got out of jail with that 3rd place. Never looked much like taking Alonso and with the final pit stop looming, he made an error and lost time. I don't know how he came out of the pits ahead of Alonso.

Valencia next. I've seen a simulator go round it. Looks pretty good and there is certainly a fast section near the end of the lap that looks really good. I just hope the simulation is accurate.